A bunch of amateur questions

[Lingus]

Hey guys, I am currently in the modeling phase of my 4 string fretless neck-through bass build, and I thought of a bunch of questions that make this project seem a little overwhelming. Right now, I am modeling based on this Carvin template:

My questions:
1) I know that the distance between the neck and the bridge needs to be 34" for a full scale, but how close to the bottom of the body can the bridge go? Like, what if there was a bass that had a bridge basically flush with the edge of the bottom of the body, would that still be okay? I guess I am asking because I am not sure where I should place my bridge.

2) This template I am basing my model on leaves me curious about how I should design my wings. How long should the horns be? I think that the wing design would be the most open-ended part of designing basses since the wings are different for every bass design. I am curious if there are any necessities or fundamental rules for designing wings for a bass.

3) Should I model my head at an angle like the template depicts? I have only ever played basses that don't have heads at an angle, but I am wondering if there are any benefits that come with putting it at an angle. If there are any other pictures or details that go into dimensioning the headstock of a bass that someone could provide, that would be greatly appreciated.

4) When it comes to the tapering of the neck from the nut to the heel, is there an industry standard? What's the allowable range for tapering of the neck? Can you have a neck that has zero taper and is the same width at the nut and the heel if it's wide enough?

5) When it comes to making the neck, should I cut space into the actual neck to place the truss rod and then get a fretless fingerboard that would be glued on top of it?

6) Is there an industry standard on how far apart the pickups should be?

7) In the template, it says that the body should be around 1.68 inches thick. Does that sound right? I don't have a sense of whether that's too thin or too thick. Same goes for the headstock, .56 inches seems like it would be too thin for a piece of wood that is experiencing a lot of tension. Any validation or justification on that would be awesome.

That's all the questions I have or now, I am sure I will think of more as I continue this project, so I will try to ask more in the same thread so there's context.

Thanks guys!

-LZ

 

[T_Bone_TL]

Note - wooddorker who hangs out here and might get my tuit round one day. Not a luthier.

Stock advice around here (often violated in practice) is the the upper horn (or the strap attachment point, anyway) should reach the 12th fret, normally, for normal basses not neck-diving. There'a bunch of not normal approaches seen as well as those that follow that rule of thumb. Some folks prefer it further up, even.

The bridge can be at the end of the body, but that comes with not having extra wood back there to counterbalance the neck and tuners, in light of the above. Probably the most common bridge at end of body would be headless systems, in part for access to the tuners, and in part because they don't have any head to balance. Has some effect on where the bass hangs, so you might want to test whether you'd be comfortable playing with the bass moved to the bridge side by the amount you presently have between the bridge and the strap connection (i.e. to the right if you're a righty.)

Note that due to compensation (intonation), the bridge saddles are normally a bit more than 34" on a 34" scale bass, with the high string (typically G or C) being closest to actual scale length and the low one (typically E or B) being quite a bit further. The rest of the bridge where the strings anchor sticks a fair bit futher back toward the end of the body from the saddles.

Angling the headstock means you don't need string trees or buttons to hold the strings down, as the angle provides sufficient break angle over the nut without extra hardware. Here's some recent discussion of jigs and links to other places with jigs in a recent build thread. There's also some "teaching moments" going on there today. We often learn more when things go wrong, unfortunately. https://www.talkbass.com/threads/wi...for-clearing-out-the-scrap-bin.1636784/page-3

As for other things, hang around and read, use the search function here, etc. There's a pickup placement thread (not the only one, I'm sure) that's presently active, for instance.
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/pickup-locations.1582478/

ISTR classical guitars are often un-tapered. Most people find that uncomfortable to play on a bass, but if it works for you, go for it. Perhaps you have very long fingers... This thread is a pretty good dive into the how and why of building a neck that works: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/about-that-quartersawn-maple.1265053/

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Hey guys, I am currently in the modeling phase of my 4 string fretless neck-through bass build, and I thought of a bunch of questions that make this project seem a little overwhelming. Right now, I am modeling based on this Carvin template:

My questions:
1) I know that the distance between the neck and the bridge needs to be 34" for a full scale, but how close to the bottom of the body can the bridge go? Like, what if there was a bass that had a bridge basically flush with the edge of the bottom of the body, would that still be okay? I guess I am asking because I am not sure where I should place my bridge.

2) This template I am basing my model on leaves me curious about how I should design my wings. How long should the horns be? I think that the wing design would be the most open-ended part of designing basses since the wings are different for every bass design. I am curious if there are any necessities or fundamental rules for designing wings for a bass.

3) Should I model my head at an angle like the template depicts? I have only ever played basses that don't have heads at an angle, but I am wondering if there are any benefits that come with putting it at an angle. If there are any other pictures or details that go into dimensioning the headstock of a bass that someone could provide, that would be greatly appreciated.

4) When it comes to the tapering of the neck from the nut to the heel, is there an industry standard? What's the allowable range for tapering of the neck? Can you have a neck that has zero taper and is the same width at the nut and the heel if it's wide enough?

5) When it comes to making the neck, should I cut space into the actual neck to place the truss rod and then get a fretless fingerboard that would be glued on top of it?

6) Is there an industry standard on how far apart the pickups should be?

7) In the template, it says that the body should be around 1.68 inches thick. Does that sound right? I don't have a sense of whether that's too thin or too thick. Same goes for the headstock, .56 inches seems like it would be too thin for a piece of wood that is experiencing a lot of tension. Any validation or justification on that would be awesome.

That's all the questions I have or now, I am sure I will think of more as I continue this project, so I will try to ask more in the same thread so there's context.

Thanks guys!

-LZ

Welcome to Luthier's Corner, Lingus!

Wow, that's quite a list of questions. They are all valid and important questions about how to design an electric bass. Each one of them has been thoroughly discussed and argued at length in multiple threads here, if you want to do some serious digging and reading. In most of them, there's a general agreement among us, but there are many alternate ideas and designs, which are also valid. It depends a lot on what you want to build. Are you trying to build a Fender? Or an Alembic? A Rickenbacker, a Carl Thompson, a Steinberger, a Carvin, what? What are the features of the bass that you want? The answers to your questions depend on what you are trying to do.

I've written many pages here on Luthier's Corner, about the engineering side of designing electric basses. I'll attempt to write a quick summary answer here, to each of your questions. A basic general answer that most of us here would agree with. But I encourage you to search each of these questions, here on TalkBass within Luthier's Corner, and read some of the full threads on each subject. That will give you a better understanding of why it's commonly done that way, and what the alternatives are.

Question 1: Bridge Location

For a 34" scale length bass, the bridge must be located so the high point on the saddles is exactly 34" from the forward edge of the nut. This is done with the saddles adjusted to nearly all the way forward within the bridge. So that almost all of the travel of the saddles is back away from the neck. That is critical for being able to set the intonation correctly. That determines where the bridge needs to be in relation to the neck.

That is where the bridge has to be, so you have to design the back end of the body to fit that. The back end of the bridge can hang off the edge of the body a little bit, as long as you can attach it tightly with all the screws. But most of us wouldn't do that, because it's ugly.

I've got to get out to the shop, but there's the summary answer to the first question. I'll continue writing more.

 

[rudy4444]

Good questions to start with.

If you're designing from scratch I'd suggest you leave enough room between the bridge plate edge and body to accommodate your body round over.

Upper horn location? That can often be an educated guess in a new design. When I did a new design recently I included a longer upper horn to make sure there were no neck dive issues. After putting the instrument together I shortened the upper horn by a couple of inches because the extra length wasn't needed. I document that change in my build topic HERE if you want to see that done.

As far as head stock back angle goes, it's best to lay out a good drawing of the side profile after purchasing the tuners you are going to use. The distance from the nut to the closest tuners and the angle, coupled with the ACTUAL height of the tuner string posts will determine if there will be enough break angle over the nut to create the right amount of down force for the string.

A final thought... If this is your first bass it's REALLY good to purchase a good construction drawing from a reliable supplier so you don't end up making the mistakes that you haven't thought of. That's much easier to do than you might realize.

 

[ardgedee]

Stock advice around here (often violated in practice) is the the upper horn (or the strap attachment point, anyway) should reach the 12th fret, normally, for normal basses not neck-diving. There'a bunch of not normal approaches seen as well as those that follow that rule of thumb. Some folks prefer it further up, even.

IMO, the 12th fret position has more do with reach than neck dive. There are a very broad range of design and material choices that affect the center of balance of a bass -- usually the 12th fret is a safe choice more than a mandate. A long or large headstock (Fender) makes the bass more neck heavy than a tiny headstock (Soundgear, Tune). Heavy tuners (or a lot of them), dense neck wood (or a big neck, such as on a 5 or 6 string bass) also add to neck heaviness, but that strap peg is usually around the 12th fret in all those examples.

When the upper strap peg position moves from the 12th fret closer to the body, it moves the nut away from the fretting hand and that increases the amount of reach necessary. (The lower strap peg, near the bridge, also affects how the bass hangs on the body, but this ramble is going on pretty long already.) You'll usually notice headless basses almost always have a horn that reaches to around the 12th fret too, despite not needing it for balance -- there's considerably less mass above the nut than on your average Fender bass. There was even a "boomerang" bracket for the original boat-oar Steinbergers that could be mounted to the back of the bass to put the strap pegs in positions more closely resembling a traditional bass's.

Arm reach, playing position, the bass's body shape, your human body's shape, and how low and at what angle the bass is slung all affect reach as well as balance, and they're some of the reasons why, for example, some people find SG-style, Tbird-style or Warwick Thumb basses (all of which have upper strap pegs pretty far from the 12th fret) perfectly comfortable and others think they're unplayable.