A little more on why Nashville numbers....

[MalcolmAmos]

As this was asked at the tail end of a long string involving another subject, I've started a new one on the topic of Why Nashville numbers for your bass........

Hi Malcolm Amos, can I hop in and ask a question about this? Do you read music as well and if so, what are the advantages of learning the notes in addition to the Nashville system? I ask because I just find numbers, intervals etc. so much easier to understand than note names. Even when I play piano using sheet music, I'm thinking in lines and spaces rather than note names (admittedly I'm very slow at sight reading). Currently the only time I use note names in bass playing is in figuring out the key (so I know which chord to start on), but after that I switch completely to numbers and don't think about the key again. Is this ok? Have you come across situations when this hasn't worked?

I read standard notation, however, are never handed standard notation by any director I play for. So I can not play from standard notation because I just do not practice it enough to keep the rust off, i.e. I read standard notation but seldom play from standard notation. SN does help me with my theory as it is the universal language of music.

I two find numbers, intervals, etc. much easier to use than note or chord names. Why? Our fretboard is laid out in patterns. The major scale box pattern is my Rosetta Stone thus I think in numbers as well as note and chord names. That is a double edged sword right at first, but, I've grown to like it.

Major Scale Box.

G~~|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D~~|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A~~|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E~~|-------|-R (1)-|-------|---2---|4th string
Notice the 1 or 8 can sub for each other.
and the upper 2, 3 & 4 are just in another octave.

Like you the chord and note name help me with the scale or key used in the song, but, once this has been established I transpose my fake chord sheet music over to Nashville Numbers and I play from that. Yes I play with sheet music on my music stand - in public as well as at home. In public it's normally at a nursing home playing Country or Church playing Praise. Neither care if I use sheet music on stage. The few fairs or street dances we do the music stand does not cause a problem.

You asked; "Have I come across situations when this hasn't worked?" Beyond jamming circles, no Nashville Numbers have not been a problem while playing the bass. I did try it with rhythm guitar and quickly went back to chord names. Why? With rhythm guitar I form the chord by fingering the necessary strings and then strum the chord, with the bass I'm using individual notes of the chord and Nashville just fits better for me. Nashville numbers started with the studio musicians in Nashville having to play the same song in different keys for the many different vocalists they come up on. Using Nashville numbers changing keys for different vocalists is easy to do. For some reason I stay with chord names when playing rhythm guitar and utilize a capo to change the key on the fly.

Now in jamming circles I tend to think in chord progressions, i.e., I-IV-V7-I but after I know that the I-IV-V7-I will be C, F, G7, C and where I'll find those notes on my fretboard I then revert (my thinking) to Nashville numbers to play that progression - if I'm using the bass. Like I said above I play rhythm guitar better from chord names instead of Nashville numbers - and use a capo when the fat lady changes the key on me.

Key of C = Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5, Cmaj7
Nashville = 1.........2.......3......4.........5....6......7...........8
C Scale =...1.........2.......3......4.........5....6......7...........8 Nashville numbers and scale degree numbers are the same.

Little something I learned from David Reed's E-book, Improvise For Real.

Using my fake chord sheet music transposed to Nashville Numbers; say I want to play a full chord tone, the R-3-5-7 or the 1-3-5-7 notes of the scale. Here is a new twist on all that, i.e. it revolves around how chords are made.

How are chords made? Answer; the notes of the tonic scale. Which notes? Answer; every other one. Yep chords are made from a root note then ever other note in that scale. This concept skips over all that R-b3-5-b7 stuff. All the sharps and flats just fall into place. For example:

C major Scale = C, D, E, F, G, A, B.
The Cmaj7 =.....C......E......G......B and Nashville numbers would be 1-3-5-7. OK so?

Fake chord sheet music in Nashville Numbers could look something like this:

1............................ 4
Lyric words under the chords is how
........................5...........1
fake chord sheet music is written
1......................................4
It more than likely will use a four line
......................5....................1
verse structure through out the song.
​

I know the song is in the Key of C so my 1 root is a C. And I want to fill out the bass line and not just play roots. OK I move my Major scale box's R over the C note at the 4th string 8th fret and sound the 1 root note then start skipping a note... Read that again.

Major Scale Box.

G~~|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D~~|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A~~|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E~~|-------|---1---|-------|---2---|4th string
Notice the 1 or 8 can sub for each other
and the upper 2, 3 & 4 are just in another octave

1 = 1-3-5-7 The next chord is a 4.... sound the 4 then skip a note - 6-1-3.
2 = 2-4-6-1
3 = 3-5-7-2
4 = 4-6-1-3 The next chord is the 5 - grab a 5 then start skipping a note.
5 = 5-7-2-4
6 = 6-1-3-5
7 = 7-2-4-6​

Once those are into muscle memory any time the song has a Nashville number 3 chord a 3-5-7-2 bass line is going to fit IF you have the room for four notes. If not use as many of the notes as the song allows. Do all the sharps and flats just fall into place? Yep, as long as the song stays in one scale/key, check it out for yourself.

Have fun.

 

[1stnamebassist]

Malcolm I have a question. Lets say you have a chord that falls outside the major scale. Lets use the key of C again. If we went from the 1 to the 3 but instead of the 3 being an E minor or Eminor 7 it was an E major? Would you notate the 3 with a capital letter M to designate it a major chord? So it would be 3M?

 

[Clef_de_fa]

wow ... even after your very well explained post ... I still hate Nashville system. It lacks bars to make sense of how long each chord last ... 0 melody or rythm and on top of that you have no information of the quality of the chord.

Also ... I-IV-V7 in Nashville would be ( epic drum roll for suspence ) 1-4-5

And our friend 1stnamebassist point out : if you have chord that goes outside the chromatic scale you are f***ed. You can't use that system outside of bare bone music in 4/4.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Malcolm I have a question. Lets say you have a chord that falls outside the major scale. Lets use the key of C again. If we went from the 1 to the 3 but instead of the 3 being an E minor or Eminor 7 it was an E major? Would you notate the 3 with a capital letter M to designate it a major chord? So it would be 3M?

Good question. I'm thinking as I type. What I outlined works if you stay in key/scale. The book I'm getting this from outlines skip a note as a way to improvise songs (melody and or harmony) that stay in one key/scale. That does cover 99.9% of the Praise and Country songs I play. If you elect to go out the skip a note would apply to the "out" chord so yes some notation would have to be used and which way has not revealed itself in the book I'm using.

At the moment I'd probably notate it with Nashville and scale degree numbers 3(R-3-5-7) or 3+ and of course your 3M.

Perhaps others will chime in.

EDIT - After giving this more thought. It's not a big deal. With a simple 3M or 3+ whenever we see the 3M coming up in the song, grab some E root fives..... for that chord and revert to some of the other "stuff" we have filled away. The fifth of any chord is either up a string and over two frets, or right below the root on the next string down, same fret. My point; we do not HAVE TO stay with skip a note, some E-5's or E-5-8-5 solve the problem.

 

[BassChuck]

A question I would have is: how much of the music is composed so that it will fit Nashville Numbering? Nashville Numbering, TAB, even SN are all technologies. It's always interesting to note how the technology influences the art.

 

[1stnamebassist]

wow ... even after your very well explained post ... I still hate Nashville system. It lacks bars to make sense of how long each chord last ... 0 melody or rythm and on top of that you have no information of the quality of the chord.

Also ... I-IV-V7 in Nashville would be ( epic drum roll for suspence ) 1-4-5

And our friend 1stnamebassist point out : if you have chord that goes outside the chromatic scale you are f***ed. You can't use that system outside of bare bone music in 4/4.

It does come in handy if your playing but all of the sudden a singer says you know, I don't like this key, lets switch from C TO A. Someone who has memorized the song a certain way will struggle, but someone who understands what chords are in a certain key would be able to switch without thinking about it. I've played in Churches a lot of modern contemporary Christian music and we would get a Chord chart. I would sometimes write out the numbers as Malcolm points out in case there is a key change so I don't have to think about it. I played with one guitar player who would literally learn leads to songs note for note. When a key change was called he would have a panic attack because he was unable to switch keys. He had no theory knowledge whatsoever. He didn't even understand what a 1,4,5 progression was! So if you have already figured out the major scale in thirds and what each chord is, like in C the 2 chord is Dmin or Dmin7, you really won't need a chord chart or have to see if the chord is major or minor. The numbers will suffice. I find it quite handy myself others don't and that's ok. Like I was asking Malcolm earlier if you come across a chord outside of a key which does happen from time to time, and probably too much to be useful in jazz, I would have to notate it differently either as a major or minor, or if totally outside of the key I may use a b5 to designate an F# for instance in the key of C.

 

[dreamadream99]

The numbering system is not related to a specific key, so is easily transposable. This is helpful to those readers not adept at transposing by sight.

Chords outside the diatonic key are altered with flats and sharps. Here is the chromatic numbering system:
1, b2, 2, b3, 3, 4, #4/b5, 5, b6, 6, b7, 7

 

[1stnamebassist]

The numbering system is not related to a specific key, so is easily transposable. This is helpful to those readers not adept at transposing by sight.

Chords outside the diatonic key are altered with flats and sharps. Here is the chromatic numbering system:
1, b2, 2, b3, 3, 4, #4/b5, 5, b6, 6, b7, 7

Thanks! I guess the way I guessed was ok then!

 

[Clef_de_fa]

It does come in handy if your playing but all of the sudden a singer says you know, I don't like this key, lets switch from C TO A. Someone who has memorized the song a certain way will struggle, but someone who understands what chords are in a certain key would be able to switch without thinking about it. I've played in Churches a lot of modern contemporary Christian music and we would get a Chord chart. I would sometimes write out the numbers as Malcolm points out in case there is a key change so I don't have to think about it. I played with one guitar player who would literally learn leads to songs note for note. When a key change was called he would have a panic attack because he was unable to switch keys. He had no theory knowledge whatsoever. He didn't even understand what a 1,4,5 progression was! So if you have already figured out the major scale in thirds and what each chord is, like in C the 2 chord is Dmin or Dmin7, you really won't need a chord chart or have to see if the chord is major or minor. The numbers will suffice. I find it quite handy myself others don't and that's ok. Like I was asking Malcolm earlier if you come across a chord outside of a key which does happen from time to time, and probably too much to be useful in jazz, I would have to notate it differently either as a major or minor, or if totally outside of the key I may use a b5 to designate an F# for instance in the key of C.

I can of get that but you still miss a lot of basic information that turn this system useless outside of rock/pop/country type of music.

And if the songs goes : Cmaj-Fmaj-G7 ... and you need to play it in A ... it is far from difficult to do Amaj-Dmaj-E7

I still think it lacks too many elements to be useful to me

 

[Jhengsman]

I can of get that but you still miss a lot of basic information that turn this system useless outside of rock/pop/country type of music.

And if the songs goes : Cmaj-Fmaj-G7 ... and you need to play it in A ... it is far from difficult to do Amaj-Dmaj-E7

I still think it lacks too many elements to be useful to me

When you are thinking about not that hard but as you keep glancing at C instead of 1 to see if a change is coming up there might come the brain fart and and you go to C

 

[Clef_de_fa]

When you are thinking about not that hard but as you keep glancing at C instead of 1 to see if a change is coming up there might come the brain fart and and you go to C

then toss the paper sheet away since it is useless anyway

 

[Jhengsman]

then toss the paper sheet away since it is useless anyway

Not always, if it is one of many new songs in a situation where you are not just playing the same set list and the key can change at the last moment because the singer isn't able to reach or perhaps the audience/pastor decides to sing a refrain in his key can't sing in the prepared one along so we will change at the last minute you still have a reference

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Not always, if it is one of many new songs in a situation where you are not just playing the same set list and the key can change at the last moment because the singer isn't able to reach or perhaps the audience/pastor decides to sing a refrain in his key can't sing in the prepared one along so we will change at the last minute you still have a reference

this is why you always need to have a pencil close, so you can write stuff

 

[INTP]

wow ... even after your very well explained post ... I still hate Nashville system. It lacks bars to make sense of how long each chord last ... 0 melody or rythm and on top of that you have no information of the quality of the chord.

Nashville Notation DOES indicate bars and the length of time that each chord is played. There is a system for indicating signature licks, and even rhythmic notation where it's important to the song.

It's not intended to be a note-for-note indication of a song, like Standard Notation. It's a chart that allows everyone to play the form together and still allow some room for interpretation. I particularly like that it's very easy to see the form and all the important information to play the song.

It does handle an occasional odd chord, although I wouldn't want to use it with a Mingus tune.

It's OK if you don't like and/or use NN, but I'm not sure you've been given a proper introduction to it.

FWIW, the Chas Williams book is the best I've seen on the subject. Here's a sample chart/play-along from Chas's book. It includes a signature riff, along with rhythmic notation, and a non-diatonic chord:

 

[scotch]

There's a lot of incomplete and misleading information regarding Nashville Numbers going on in this thread. Nashville numbers is a shorthand for quickly communicating chord sequence and arrangement information independent of a set key signature.

It's not a complete notation system, but is geared more towards conveying song structure while encouraging creative improvisation and instant key change capability.

I've been in Nashville for 20 years. The Numbers system is invaluable as a session tool and as an effecient live gig resource. It does not completely replace standard Western notation, however. Indicating set melodies or layered multi-instrument arrangements are not it's forte.

If you want a reliable, concise resource - here's the bible:

::The Nashville Number System

 

[Jhengsman]

this is why you always need to have a pencil close, so you can write stuff

In that case you write A=1 instead of writing A everywhere there is a C on a lyric/chord chart.

 

[russosborne]

I've looked into this a bit but am totally confused.
I am not seeing what makes the Nashville system different than just using the scale I, II, III, IV, V, etc.
Help?
Thanks,
Russ

 

[scotch]

I've looked into this a bit but am totally confused.
I am not seeing what makes the Nashville system different than just using the scale I, II, III, IV, V, etc.
Help?
Thanks,
Russ

It's not 'different' from that, there's just a whole lot more to it!

Yeah, the chord numbers are derived from the scale degrees. Then, you have some of those numbers enclosed by different shapes (diamonds, triangles, squares) denoting things like single measure time signature changes, whole notes, multiple chords to a bar...

 

[russosborne]

Thanks.
I guess I didn't dig deep enough when I googled this a month or two back.
Russ

 

[INTP]

Thanks.
I guess I didn't dig deep enough when I googled this a month or two back.
Russ

There's more to it than one could post in a thread like this, but if you really want to know more about it, Chas Williams's book is a great way to learn NN. You need a basic understanding of diatonic chords, but that's useful for more than just NN.

I realize your question is, "is this worth learning". I find NN really useful for learning cover tunes. I can write out the form and the changes quickly, and I end up with a quick reference for the song that I can refer to later if needed (I keep the charts in a binder). I find that by writing it out, I learn the form much more quickly than I would without it. I go to rehearsals ready to play, and have a chart available if there are any questions about (or changes to) the song. Overall, NN provides a huge benefit for a minor investment.

I haven't played with anyone else that uses it, unfortunately, but it would be a great way for a band to share covers or originals if everyone in the band could follow it.