Double Bass A Mick Goodrick Analysis on Classical Strings

[Jake Reber]

From Mick Goodrick's (RIP) book, "The Advancing Guitarist:"

'A long time ago, I made a chart that contained every note of the guitar, and every location and every practical fingering. (An example of an "unpractical" fingering would be to play Low F with your 4th finger!) Instead of writing it out, let me tell you what I learned from it:

·The range of the guitar is about 45 half steps (We're not including any harmonics in this analysis.)

·The very low notes and the very high notes on the guitar have only one location and not too many fingerings, but concert middle C, which is in the middle of the register of the instrument, has FIVE locations and about 16 different fingerings!

· When you calculate all the numbers, it comes out this way: the average note on the guitar has 2.8 locations and 9.2 fingerings

·It's important to understand how very complicated the guitar really is. Also, how vast are its possibilities. This way, we can cultivate patience and stop worrying because we think we aren't learning fast enough (to really know the guitar HAS to take time. Why be in such a hurry?"

·The next time someone complains to you because your sight reading "isn't what it should be," you'll know exactly what to tell them!'

I reference this passage constantly in my life, and it got me thinking about applying this type of data analysis to classical strings; Violin/Viola/Cello/Bass. Without taking into account how the lack of frets & intonating notes adds basically an x∞ multiplier to everything, I started by examing violin as tho it was fretted like a mandolin:

The violin's range about 46 half steps from it's lowest open string (G3) up to an E7, which is what google lists as it's highest practical note (again, no harmonics in this analysis) and from my count, there are 15 notes that have only 1 location, 13 that have 2 locations, and 18 that have 3 locations. I have no way of counting the practical fingerings as I lack that knowledge. I also lack the knowledge of how to math these numbers from here to get to the type of averages Mr. Goodrick came to

Is this of interest to anyone else to assist me with this?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I don’t have the math skills to do this sort of thing, but there are a few folks here who do. I hope they will chime in.

Years ago, when I published my second Thumb Position video, I received a message from the great Dutch bassist Hein van de Geyn. He inquired about a fingering I labeled a certain way, and why, and it led to a nice exchange of information and a discussion of fingering practices. He said he had been working on a spreadsheet detailing every possible way to finger scales and actually sent me a copy. He’s an amazing musician and teacher and it was fascinating stuff.

I have to admit it was eye opening to encounter someone whose obsessiveness for all things bass matched and surpassed my own, at least in that particular area. I really enjoyed the way his comments made me take a look at the possibilities with fresh eyes. Hopefully someone here with the right sort of math orientation will step in to help you solve this.

 

[Jake Reber]

Thanks Chris, was hoping you'd find this, didn't expect you so soon

Yeah, the more I practice, the more I incorporate "bad" habits & fingerings, so that in the heat of battle I'm ready for anything, sort of a, "Imagine every Multiverse" so to speak. Always with my shoulders down, thanks to you tho

That spreadsheet could be helpful for getting the every practical fingering portion of this Analysis, as I don't even know where to start for that one

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I don‘t have the interest and time to do it but here are my ideas:

First generate all possible hand position (interval spreading of the fingers, including the fifth between thumb and ring finger).

Generate a list with all fingerings with the different hand positions, independent if they make sense practically or not.

Then check if the fingering makes sense and eliminate those that don‘t from the list. That‘s it.

The elimination criteria may differ. A low F with the fourth finger might not be unusual with an extended E but does not make sense with a standard low E (unless you are used to play an extended E string).

Depending on the strings A note on the lower string in a higher position might not sound good these notes may be marked as non-ideal.

A note on the fingerboard with a hand position where fingers might go beyond the fingerboard are typically not very useful, but in certain circumstance may still be useable (I.e. constant hand pattern shifting).

So the filtering should be made flexible to filter a certain criteria out or not.

Easiest to generate and filter by a machine (computer), but it needs to get programmed for it.
By hand it might take a lot of time, specially the filtering.

 

[peteswanson91]

I would think about this with key centers in mind. I find it best to
Visualize the key center I am in on the fingerboard, this can see both linearly
And vertically at the same time… that changed my knowledge of the fingerboard more than anything else

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

When I was a guitar student at Berklee in the early 80s, part of the Berklee method involved mapping the fingerboard in various ways. One of these ways was an “across the board” method of learning scale fingerings/box patterns that you could begin with fingers 1, 2, or 4. When I began playing bass, it was natural to incorporate these into across the board playing, just using pivots instead of the 3rd finger.

I’ll have to find and revisit van de Geyn’s spreadsheet at some point, but my memory is that in looking at it, I was able to see not only these across the board routes, but also what I thought of as all of the “forks in the road” as well.

I think of it like this:
There are basically two main modes of playing scales - across the strings, and along the string. Neither is inherently better or more useful than the other, and obviously, all of the “across the strings” patterns contain little chunks of “along the string” movement on each string.

If the player shifts out of one “across box”, they now can continue along the string in the direction they are currently going, or they can understand that the shift has now placed them into a different “across box” which they can then utilize to ascend or descend if they choose. Or they can keep playing along the string if that produces a better musical result.

I was just working with grad students this past week on a Chris Potter tune that featured an Adam Rogers solo that used pentatonic and blues vocabulary extensively even as the changes shifted through various closely related keys. As the keys shifted, the pentatonics would change by one note (i.e. they retained 4 notes in common). Rogers found a way to dance on the common tones and then shift into the new position to outline each tonality, and the solo was completely masterful. It sounds so simple until you try to do it!

Anyway, the upshot was that there are two ways of approaching the same pentatonic/blues tonality on a string instrument. There is a minor blues pattern that moves across the strings, and the relative major version that moves along the string (i.e. Cmi blues and EbMa blues are modes of each other). Learning to slip between them gives maximum flexibility, but it requires a sort of visual intervallic mapping of the board in the player’s mind, an understanding about the various paths available from where the hand currently is.

Needless to say, I find this a fascinating subject!

 

[hhalt]

I highly recommend Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" even for bass players. The first few pages alone are worth the price of the book. I love the concept of the "Science of the Unitar"-all the possibilities of playing up and down one string. Eventually progressing to the "Realm of the Electric Ice-Skating Rink"-the combination of single string shifting and position playing.

 

[peteswanson91]

Goodrick’s “almanacs of voiceleading” are in my opinion some of the most important books ever written on music. I highly recommend them if you can find them

 

[peteswanson91]

I highly recommend Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" even for bass players. The first few pages alone are worth the price of the book. I love the concept of the "Science of the Unitar"-all the possibilities of playing up and down one string. Eventually progressing to the "Realm of the Electric Ice-Skating Rink"-the combination of single string shifting and position playing.

This is a huge part of David Allen Moore’s “fractal fingering” concept

 

[crd]

Do you really need more than the scale fingers in Rabbath book 4?

 

[meandering]

Do you really need more than the scale fingers in Rabbath book 4?

I think you mean Rabbath 3 (blue cover, first ~50 pages are 3 octave scales w/fingerings). If so, I think the answer is "yes", at least for me. I love Rabbath 3 and it has really opened/pushed up my technique (along w/Vance's Vade Mecum, a gentler intro to multiple fingering of scales). That being said, Rabbath's approach to thumb position is going up a single string for the most part. The complete scales due incorporate string crossings in thumb position; however, I find that something like David Allen Moore's method is a more complete approach to fingerings across two and three strings. I find this especially useful in improvisational settings. My main problem now is finding time to spend on both each day...

 

[peteswanson91]

I actually got tons out of Goodrick… also working with adjacent strings with dyads

 

[the_Ryan]

From Mick Goodrick's (RIP) book, "The Advancing Guitarist:"

'A long time ago, I made a chart that contained every note of the guitar, and every location and every practical fingering. (An example of an "unpractical" fingering would be to play Low F with your 4th finger!) Instead of writing it out, let me tell you what I learned from it:

·The range of the guitar is about 45 half steps (We're not including any harmonics in this analysis.)

·The very low notes and the very high notes on the guitar have only one location and not too many fingerings, but concert middle C, which is in the middle of the register of the instrument, has FIVE locations and about 16 different fingerings!

· When you calculate all the numbers, it comes out this way: the average note on the guitar has 2.8 locations and 9.2 fingerings

·It's important to understand how very complicated the guitar really is. Also, how vast are its possibilities. This way, we can cultivate patience and stop worrying because we think we aren't learning fast enough (to really know the guitar HAS to take time. Why be in such a hurry?"

·The next time someone complains to you because your sight reading "isn't what it should be," you'll know exactly what to tell them!'

I reference this passage constantly in my life, and it got me thinking about applying this type of data analysis to classical strings; Violin/Viola/Cello/Bass. Without taking into account how the lack of frets & intonating notes adds basically an x∞ multiplier to everything, I started by examing violin as tho it was fretted like a mandolin:

The violin's range about 46 half steps from it's lowest open string (G3) up to an E7, which is what google lists as it's highest practical note (again, no harmonics in this analysis) and from my count, there are 15 notes that have only 1 location, 13 that have 2 locations, and 18 that have 3 locations. I have no way of counting the practical fingerings as I lack that knowledge. I also lack the knowledge of how to math these numbers from here to get to the type of averages Mr. Goodrick came to

Is this of interest to anyone else to assist me with this?

So uh, inspired by this post I did a thing.

I have a table (with a bonus bar graph because charts are fun) attached as a .pdf that I put together in Numbers this afternoon.

A couple of notes:

• Fingerings are calculated as using only 0 for the open strings; 1 only for the "1st fret"; 1 and 2 only for the "2nd fret"; 1, 2, and 4 from the "3rd fret" up"; thumb is introduced at the "5th fret"; 3 is introduced at the "8th fret", 4 drops out after the "11th fret"; thumb drops out after the "24th fret"; 1 drops out after the "29th fret"; 2 drops out after the "30th fret".
  • Thumb can be used below Rabbath 2nd position (from here on out I'm specifically using Rabbath's position terminology when I refer to a position) and past the "24th fret" in 6th position, but I consider it as being a "break glass in case of emergency" tool: I have done it, but only as a last resort when there have been no other options.
  • The same applies for 4 at and above the octave harmonic.
  • I considered 3's starting point as being the "8th fret" since if you start using the thumb in 2nd position that would be the lowest where 3 would occur; I do use 3 below that point, but it's almost always as a 1-3 half step in place of a 1-2 half step and not as a hand position spanning 4 half steps.
• These fingerings include pressed notes, open strings, and natural harmonics. The only partials I used were the second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth since those partials play notes that appear as pressed notes on the fingerboard.
  • In addition, although in the table I have the fifth partial notes specified as G#/Ab3, C#/Db4, F#/Gb4, and B4, it is important to remember that these pitches when played as fifth partial harmonics are pure major thirds relative to the open string and not the 12-TET approximation of a major third. Therefore they should be used with caution when playing with others (unless it's specifically marked in the score/part) and avoided entirely when playing Ab3, Db4, Gb4, and Cb4.
• This does not include extension or fifth string notes. For extension notes the big issue is I would have to recalculate harmonic locations and pitches for each gated note and that was more work than I wanted to tackle this afternoon. Regarding 5-string basses, I have no experiences with a 5-string double bass with a low B and therefore can't comment on the practical range of that string.
• I chose D5 as the upper bound because that's what Rabbath considers as the upper bound for 6th position even though in solo rep we often play notes higher than that through the use of (artificial and natural) harmonics and pulling the string to the side below the fingerboard. Many basses have shorter or longer fingerboards than 2-octaves-plus-a-fifth (or "31 frets"), but I felt this was the most practical stopping point.
• It's not the most practical execution- or sound-wise to play pressed notes past 4th position on the E string, but I included it because it's useful to practice (and makes playing in thumb position on the upper 3 strings much easier).
• This is is all entirely devoid of any musical context; if one wants more practical (instead of theoretical) ways to expand fingering possibilities, I highly recommend Rabbath book 3 (including the etudes and exercises in the second half of the book, not just the scales), Hal Robinson's Boardwalkin' (an extrapolation of page 52 in Rabbath book 3 to all 24 major and minor keys), and David Allen Moore's Fractal Fingering.

Hopefully this helps someone out there.

 

[Jake Reber]

Yes, this is exactly what I was looking for! Thank you immensely !!

So uh, inspired by this post I did a thing.

I have a table (with a bonus bar graph because charts are fun) attached as a .pdf that I put together in Numbers this afternoon.

A couple of notes:

• Fingerings are calculated as using only 0 for the open strings; 1 only for the "1st fret"; 1 and 2 only for the "2nd fret"; 1, 2, and 4 from the "3rd fret" up"; thumb is introduced at the "5th fret"; 3 is introduced at the "8th fret", 4 drops out after the "11th fret"; thumb drops out after the "24th fret"; 1 drops out after the "29th fret"; 2 drops out after the "30th fret".
  • Thumb can be used below Rabbath 2nd position (from here on out I'm specifically using Rabbath's position terminology when I refer to a position) and past the "24th fret" in 6th position, but I consider it as being a "break glass in case of emergency" tool: I have done it, but only as a last resort when there have been no other options.
  • The same applies for 4 at and above the octave harmonic.
  • I considered 3's starting point as being the "8th fret" since if you start using the thumb in 2nd position that would be the lowest where 3 would occur; I do use 3 below that point, but it's almost always as a 1-3 half step in place of a 1-2 half step and not as a hand position spanning 4 half steps.
• These fingerings include pressed notes, open strings, and natural harmonics. The only partials I used were the second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth since those partials play notes that appear as pressed notes on the fingerboard.
  • In addition, although in the table I have the fifth partial notes specified as G#/Ab3, C#/Db4, F#/Gb4, and B4, it is important to remember that these pitches when played as fifth partial harmonics are pure major thirds relative to the open string and not the 12-TET approximation of a major third. Therefore they should be used with caution when playing with others (unless it's specifically marked in the score/part) and avoided entirely when playing Ab3, Db4, Gb4, and Cb4.
• This does not include extension or fifth string notes. For extension notes the big issue is I would have to recalculate harmonic locations and pitches for each gated note and that was more work than I wanted to tackle this afternoon. Regarding 5-string basses, I have no experiences with a 5-string double bass with a low B and therefore can't comment on the practical range of that string.
• I chose D5 as the upper bound because that's what Rabbath considers as the upper bound for 6th position even though in solo rep we often play notes higher than that through the use of (artificial and natural) harmonics and pulling the string to the side below the fingerboard. Many basses have shorter or longer fingerboards than 2-octaves-plus-a-fifth (or "31 frets"), but I felt this was the most practical stopping point.
• It's not the most practical execution- or sound-wise to play pressed notes past 4th position on the E string, but I included it because it's useful to practice (and makes playing in thumb position on the upper 3 strings much easier).
• This is is all entirely devoid of any musical context; if one wants more practical (instead of theoretical) ways to expand fingering possibilities, I highly recommend Rabbath book 3 (including the etudes and exercises in the second half of the book, not just the scales), Hal Robinson's Boardwalkin' (an extrapolation of page 52 in Rabbath book 3 to all 24 major and minor keys), and David Allen Moore's Fractal Fingering.

Hopefully this helps someone out there.