A systematic scale fingering method

[Fabio_MIJ]

Hello guys,

A lot of discussions about this topic but I haven't found any one giving a really exhaustive view.
I am asking you to help me giving an overview on how to approach scales fingering in a systematic way.
We may agree on some premises:

_ What is a scale? It is a catalog of notes, the list of ingredients over which we can build a recipe: harmonic progressions, melodies, etc... and cook: a piece of music.

_ What is a fingering scheme? It is one way of visualizing the scale on your instrument, it can be used to to know the notes on the fretboard, to optimize execution, as a shortcut for improvisation, for ear training, etc... a complementary tool, not the final goal of music, nor the only necessary ingredient.

_ As the slow-hand, slow-thinking and short-memory guy I am, I think the system should be as much as possible:

1) Simple and technique-oriented: it should generally make the playing easier from the physical and mental point of view.

2) Modular and Symmetric: no exceptional cases or complex structures to remember, unless there is a strong specific reason for that.

3) Systematic and generally applicable, cover the whole fingerboard and scale types, so that one should have the whole view quite easily and reconstruct an unknown scale using simple rules, without the need of a written support.

I will refer to modal scales of the temperate system, since they are all made of 7 notes, so they will make the life easier, other scales are often more symmetric and are prone to be studied differently. Coming from guitar I have learned 2 main fingering systems:

1) 5-position scale boxes: starting from major pentatonic scales and playing 2 notes per string, then adding the 4-th and 7-th to have the other scales.
PROS:
it mainly avoids finger stretching and shifting. Connects well to the pentatonic and some beginner chord forms.
CONS:
Not very systematic because it does not have any fingering form starting from the 4-th and 7-th. The overlapping of the boxes is not homogeneous.

2) 3-note-per-string scales: starting from the major scales and playing three notes per string, shifting of one-note steps to have 7 positions.
PROS:
Systematic and more symmetric over the neck and scale types, so easier to remember and connect to a playing situation.
Cover more easily large tonal ranges since it is more diagonal than vertical/horizontal.
Push the student to mix vertical and horizontal playing.
CONS:
More finger stretching and shifting.
7 positions can be frightening at the beginning.

These are the main ones I know, then there are exercises to connect better the positions, like playing scales on one string, playing a melody starting with different fingers, etc...
Are there any other system you know? Which ones do you teach/practice?
You may just want to give the rules or one example, if the system is efficient extending it should not be a problem.... without never-ending fingering charts. Feel free to link with other threads and debate on the premises.

 

[ba55i5t]

Pentatonic two per string is good. Try adding in the "modes" of the pentatonic. They will further help your playing.

When it comes to major scale modes there's three general box shapes. Two aside from the 3 per string you mentioned. The one I assume is the most standard is using one finger per fret, with the root on the 2nd finger, 2nd on the 4th finger, moving up a string with the 3rd on the first finger, 4th on the 2nd finger, 5th on the 4th finger, moving up a string with the 6th on the first finger, 7th on third finger, and octave on the fourth finger. The 3 modes with a major third have a similar pattern, with 2 3 3. However the modes with a minor third have 3 3 2.

The other way to play is using your fourth finger on the root. I'm not too keen on this position but it is basically like playing the aeolian or natural minor scale in that position but starting on the minor third.

 

[Fabio_MIJ]

Pentatonic two per string is good. Try adding in the "modes" of the pentatonic. They will further help your playing.

When it comes to major scale modes there's three general box shapes. Two aside from the 3 per string you mentioned. The one I assume is the most standard is using one finger per fret, with the root on the 2nd finger, 2nd on the 4th finger, moving up a string with the 3rd on the first finger, 4th on the 2nd finger, 5th on the 4th finger, moving up a string with the 6th on the first finger, 7th on third finger, and octave on the fourth finger. The 3 modes with a major third have a similar pattern, with 2 3 3. However the modes with a minor third have 3 3 2.

The other way to play is using your fourth finger on the root. I'm not too keen on this position but it is basically like playing the aeolian or natural minor scale in that position but starting on the minor third.

The modes on the pentatonic is one thing I never studied, it may be useful to highlight some flavor by avoiding the complete modal scales notes.
The three general box shapes you mentioned is not as complete as the others but can be extremely simple and general, I would define is as:
_ you play 3 notes per string
_ you have 3 possibilities: you play the root with finger 1, 2, or 4.
_ when you reach the octave you simply repeat the same fingering or one of the other two depending what are your needs.

Probably this system extended to all modes already covers a lot and you can dedicate the saved time to reinforce reading etc..

 

[mambo4]

the "5 boxes" thing is typically the way beginners first learn scale fingering
the "3 notes per string" approach is exactly the approach described in Pac Man's Sure-fire scale practice method
I feel the latter, as outlined by Pac Man, is superior for learning.

another valuable systematic approach to scales is to play them as arpeggios of the chords of the key.

breaking up the scale by intervals is another approach.
Arpeggios is just playing the scale in 3rds.
You can expand the approach by playing scales in 4ths, 5ths, 6ths etc.

ultimately I think one has to abandon thinking in fingering patterns
replacing it with a more complete awareness of how the notes lay out on the neck
And allowing the music to dictate positions and fingerings used

 

[eJake]

I have started to teach my students to play all scales 2 octave in first position starting from the lowest note possible and never playing above the 4th fret. This will eventually teach you all positions of the major scale. In addition as you begin to add the modes it is really easy to connect modes with their relative majors (ie when I practice C phrygian I am visualising Ab major). Once all of these things start coming together the entire fretboard is open to you even tho you never shed past the 4th fret.

Edit: I will go up the G string til the Eb before dropping back to the low octave.

 

[Fabio_MIJ]

I have started to teach my students to play all scales 2 octave in first position starting from the lowest note possible and never playing above the 4th fret. This will eventually teach you all positions of the major scale. In addition as you begin to add the modes it is really easy to connect modes with their relative majors (ie when I practice C phrygian I am visualising Ab major). Once all of these things start coming together the entire fretboard is open to you even tho you never shed past the 4th fret.

Edit: I will go up the G string til the Eb before dropping back to the low octave.

Typical student question: How many are "all positions"?

 

[Fabio_MIJ]

I have started to teach my students to play all scales 2 octave in first position starting from the lowest note possible and never playing above the 4th fret. This will eventually teach you all positions of the major scale. In addition as you begin to add the modes it is really easy to connect modes with their relative majors (ie when I practice C phrygian I am visualising Ab major). Once all of these things start coming together the entire fretboard is open to you even tho you never shed past the 4th fret.

Edit: I will go up the G string til the Eb before dropping back to the low octave.

For the modes, I prefer not to insist too much with the relative major/minor link, because when you play modal this relation is not very meaningful.
To me it is easier to visualize phrygian as a minor scale with b9 than thinking about the relative major but with the root shifted on the 3rd.
Also from the ear training point of view, it gives me more information to understand why think phrygian sounds, for example, similar to locrian.
It is just a personal preference.

 

[Fabio_MIJ]

the "5 boxes" thing is typically the way beginners first learn scale fingering
the "3 notes per string" approach is exactly the approach described in Pac Man's Sure-fire scale practice method
I feel the latter, as outlined by Pac Man, is superior for learning.

another valuable systematic approach to scales is to play them as arpeggios of the chords of the key.

breaking up the scale by intervals is another approach.
Arpeggios is just playing the scale in 3rds.
You can expand the approach by playing scales in 4ths, 5ths, 6ths etc.

ultimately I think one has to abandon thinking in fingering patterns
replacing it with a more complete awareness of how the notes lay out on the neck
And allowing the music to dictate positions and fingerings used

I agree, in fact when one reads music should do not care about which scale fingering he is playing, although he may found himself in one position... the scale fingering may work as an instant suggestion or confirmation. For improvisation... I don't know, that's probably a mix of things.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

• Keep it simple and move one box to where you need it.
• First position when thinking in A, B, C's
• Up the neck when using Nashville numbers, or patterns - place the root note and gather what you need from the box. Here you think in 1, 2, 3's. R-5-8-5, etc.
• The major scale box can always get you three places to play your stuff. C at the 3rd string 3rd fret, C at the 4th string 8th fret, or C at the 3rd string 15th fret.
• Need minor flat the 3, 6 & 7.
• Need diminished flat the 5.
• Same box - just move one box and adapt it for your minor chords, modes, etc. Now two octaves if you like, but still one box.

Major scale box showing scale degree numbers and the root note on the 4th string.

G~~|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D~~|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A~~|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E~~|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string

Want the natural minor scale flat the 3, 6 & 7.
Want Dorian flat the 3 and 7.
Mixolydian, flat the 7.
Want a Cmaj7 bass line Anything from R-R-R-R, or R-R-5-5 or R-5-8-5 or if you want the full chord tone then R-3-5-7.

All those 5 boxes up the neck are for the guitar guys when improvising. Simple, one box, works for me.

 

[eJake]

For the modes, I prefer not to insist too much with the relative major/minor link, because when you play modal this relation is not very meaningful.
To me it is easier to visualize phrygian as a minor scale with b9 than thinking about the relative major but with the root shifted on the 3rd.
Also from the ear training point of view, it gives me more information to understand why think phrygian sounds, for example, similar to locrian.
It is just a personal preference.

All positions are as follows (not moving above 4th fret as mentioned)
Root at low E
Root at F and Gb
Root at G and Ab
Root at open A
Root at Bb and B
Root at C and Db
Root at open D
Root at Eb

When you practice scales with fingering systems it very much seems that your lowest note in a G Maj scale is 3rd fret E string but really it's the low E.

As far as thinking about the relative major or minor for modes, it wasn't something I intended but will happen when studying like this.

 

[SteveCS]

...
ultimately I think one has to abandon thinking in fingering patterns
replacing it with a more complete awareness of how the notes lay out on the neck
And allowing the music to dictate positions and fingerings used

^ This.

Ultimately in performance you can only play what you've trained for. If you have only ever practiced linear scales, thirds or fifths, what happens when you need to go up a major third, down a minor 6th then up a minor tenth...

 

[Fabio_MIJ]

^ This.

Ultimately in performance you can only play what you've trained for. If you have only ever practiced linear scales, thirds or fifths, what happens when you need to go up a major third, down a minor 6th then up a minor tenth...

"To Abandon" is a bit excessive to me. Because otherwise one can ask "why am I studying fingerings? Just to know where to put the hands when I don't know the notes on the fretboard?" As I said in the premises, scale fingerings are a complementary tool, that, in my opinion, can be kept also in advanced studies. It can be a shortcut to recall a mode very rapidly, without thinking how it is constructed (even if you know everything about the intervals etc...).

 

[SteveCS]

"To Abandon" is a bit excessive to me. Because otherwise one can ask "why am I studying fingerings? Just to know where to put the hands when I don't know the notes on the fretboard?" As I said in the premises, scale fingerings are a complementary tool, that, in my opinion, can be kept also in advanced studies. It can be a shortcut to recall a mode very rapidly, without thinking how it is constructed (even if you know everything about the intervals etc...).

Agreed, but you have to be, or have been familiar with or close to something in order to abandon it...

For example, how many practical fingerings, I.e. candidates for the system, are there for a major 6th interval? 1? 2? I can think of at least 4. Which might be 'systemically' correct?
I think any attempt to get too systemic would quickly become dogmatic and self-restricting. IME, fingering exercises should have the sole aim of promoting fluency, flexibility, dexterity and efficiency. Eventually the patterns become unimportant...

 

[Fabio_MIJ]

Agreed, but you have to be, or have been familiar with or close to something in order to abandon it...

For example, how many practical fingerings, I.e. candidates for the system, are there for a major 6th interval? 1? 2? I can think of at least 4. Which might be 'systemically' correct?
I think any attempt to get too systemic would quickly become dogmatic and self-restricting. IME, fingering exercises should have the sole aim of promoting fluency, flexibility, dexterity and efficiency. Eventually the patterns become unimportant...

Ok, it makes sense. Indeed, one of my motivation behind this thread is to make a kind of review, so that one takes the ones that look most useful for him. Fingering/scale exercises can be a bit dispersive...
On thing can be to eliminate superfluous practice to focus on more relevant one (especially if one does not have a lot of time to dedicate). For example I have stopped suggesting blind 1234 fingering exercises over the neck (like the "spider" or similar stuff) or parallel harmony over the neck. I encourage intervals combinations on scales applied to standard chord grids as soon as possible.

EDIT: I am not the only one going in this "music not gym" direction, Lee Konitz and Jeff Berlin to name two.

 

[SteveCS]

Ok, it makes sense. Indeed, one of my motivation behind this thread is to make a kind of review, so that one takes the ones that look most useful for him. Fingering/scale exercises can be a bit dispersive...
On thing can be to eliminate superfluous practice to focus on more relevant one (especially if one does not have a lot of time to dedicate). For example I have stopped suggesting blind 1234 fingering exercises over the neck (like the "spider" or similar stuff) or parallel harmony over the neck. I encourage intervals combinations on scales applied to standard chord grids as soon as possible.

EDIT: I am not the only one going in this "music not gym" direction, Lee Konitz and Jeff Berlin to name two.

Yes. Fingering requires planning which in turn requires context, ie the entirety of the part not just the next note. If there are trickier parts then these can be worked into smaller exercises, provided they 'connect' with the fingerings either side. In all probability, a 'scale extract' included in a larger part would not be fingered in the same way as a generic scale exercise - it is also possible that fingering of the same notes but in the context of a different line might not be the same. IMHO this is more than acceptable. That said, I think running variations on the basic patterns is still important because that equips the hand with the dexterity and physical fitness required to accommodate the options and equips the mind with the ability to work those options out.
YMMV.

 

[mambo4]

There is also the idea of the 24 permutations of 1234 fingering, or similar.

1 2 3 4     2 1 3 4     3 1 2 4     4 1 2 3
1 2 4 3     2 1 4 3     3 1 4 2     4 1 3 2
1 3 2 4     2 3 1 4     3 2 1 4     4 2 1 3
1 3 4 2     2 3 4 1     3 2 4 1     4 2 3 1
1 4 2 3     2 4 1 3     3 4 1 2     4 3 1 2
1 4 3 2     2 4 3 1     3 4 2 1     4 3 2 1

Not necessarily musical , but systematic.
More "gym" than "music"
And probably good for dexterity

 

[GastonD]

It is hard to find a more thorough approach to this subject than that of Tony Grey in his online academy. He covers the fingerings for the full range of the bass, as well as those for individual modes played from the lowest root to the higherst one.

 

[SteveCS]

It is hard to find a more thorough approach to this subject than that of Tony Grey in his online academy. He covers the fingerings for the full range of the bass, as well as those for individual modes played from the lowest root to the higherst one.

I thought we were moving past the fingerings to equipping ourselves with the knowledge and confidence to develop our own in the context of the music. I'm not aware of any peice of actual music where the bass just runs a 3 octave scale up and down again.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I thought we were moving past the fingerings to equipping ourselves with the knowledge and confidence to develop our own in the context of the music.

Well, you can't move past fingerings when the whole point of the thread is to figure out approaches to fingerings. That's what they wanna discuss.

You personally, are probably past fingerings, but someone else might actually need this info and it has to start somewhere. But once you get the initial stuff down, the ability to work out fingerings in the context of the music comes on its own. There's nothing to really talk about concerning that.

 

[SteveCS]

Well, you can't move past fingerings when the whole point of the thread is to figure out approaches to fingerings. That's what they wanna discuss.

You personally, are probably past fingerings, but someone else might actually need this info and it has to start somewhere. But once you get the initial stuff down, the ability to work out fingerings in the context of the music comes on its own. There's nothing to really talk about concerning that.

Sorry, I thought we were discussing approaches rather than actual fingerings - my bad.

Here are some basics from my approach...

1: learn to combine forward and rear extension with shifts in one smooth motion. For example, develop the ability to forward extend a m3, m6 or b9 between index and ring (or middle and pinky,) at the same time releasing the thumb and allowing the entire hand to glide up, closing the extension and moving up position;

2: Try to approach 4ths without relying on the barre, using various finger sequences to facilitate smooth shifts, allowing the thumb to reposition during the sequence rather than as a discrete step;

3: 1 and 2 in combination!

4: On a fretted instrument, try to target the fret crown to minimise movement and fingering pressure;

5: Keep the non-active fingertips as close to the strings as possible, again to minimise movement;

6: Try to develop an awareness of synchronisation between left and right hands, aiming to stop/finger and pluck at the precise same moment;

As always, YMMV...