Double Bass Accidentals in different octaves in a measure?

[Tom Lane]

Not sure if this is the best place for this question, but it's my best guess. If there is an accidental notated in a measure and there's the same pitch later in the same measure an octave down, does the accidental affect the 2nd pitch too? I've read contrary answers and so I'm wondering if there is a hard and fast rule or not?

e.g., in a measure of 4/4 with eight 8th notes: C1 E1 G1 C#2 E#2 G#2 C3 E3 G3 are the last three notes, an octave higher than the raised pitches, also sharped?

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I usually play it as written; so if the accidental is on the C2 (C#2) but not on C3 I'll play the upper octave natural. I'm curious as to what others may say though since this is something I've often wondered about myself.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

The accidental applies only to the octave it is written in, and does not affect notes in other octaves.

 

[Tom Lane]

The accidental applies only to the octave it is written in, and does not affect notes in other octaves.

Mucho gracias, Chris. Are there common cases when composers don't know the rule? Or is it a less common, amateur mistake?

 

[Papageno]

The accidental applies only to the octave it is written in, and does not affect notes in other octaves.

Agree with that ^^^: this is the usual rule.

This being said, if I had to write such stuff, I would write an explicit alteration or natural sign between parenthesis (courtesy accidental) to remove any possible misunderstanding or oversight. I also do the same when the unaltered note appears in the next bar following the altered note.

 

[Papageno]

e.g., in a measure of 4/4 with eight 8th notes: C1 E1 G1 C#2 E#2 G#2 C3 E3 G3 are the last three notes, an octave higher than the raised pitches, also sharped?

As Chris Fitzgerald said above: no. In case of doubt on whether the composer/typesetter follows the rule or not, the harmonic context (eg. what is written in other parts, or the implied chord progression) may provide useful information about what is meant.

 

[Bisounourse]

I would think that the accidental is valid for the whole measure, regardless of pitch (or at least, that is how I have been taught).

 

[Papageno]

I would think that the accidental is valid for the whole measure, regardless of pitch (or at least, that is how I have been taught).

Actually not: see this.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Mucho gracias, Chris. Are there common cases when composers don't know the rule? Or is it a less common, amateur mistake?

Most composers know the rule, and if they didn’t or slipped up their copyists or publishers would make sure everything conformed. These days, the algorithms of notation software take care of that for the composer. So if you enter an F# in a lower 8ve and an F natural later in the same measure an 8ve up, the program will either leave the upper octave note alone, or put a courtesy natural by it if the preferences are set up that way. In either case, I haven’t seen any professional notation that would expect the upper octave to be affected by the lower accidental.

 

[SteveCS]

I would think that the accidental is valid for the whole measure, regardless of pitch (or at least, that is how I have been taught).

That was not the question, but yes, it is, but only for the given note. If it was say F# on the 4th line, any Fs in any other octaves would still be natural. Of course notes tied across the bar line extend the accidental into the next measure, but the next new note will need a new accidental if it is to deviate from the key signature.
The original question is answered in the second paragraph below.

 

[Tom Lane]

As Chris Fitzgerald said above: no. In case of doubt on whether the composer/typesetter follows the rule or not, the harmonic context (eg. what is written in other parts, or the implied chord progression) may provide useful information about what is meant.

You'd think! But recently I've been playing jazz tunes that could go either way. I'd tend to think that as @Chris Fitzgerald wrote that jazz composers after 1980 would know, or at least that their editor would catch it, but not everything composed in the past 40 years falls into either camp - no editor/publicist and amateur arranger/composer. In the specific case I was considering, I do think that the composer knows the rule and that the accidental doesn't affect the other octave, but it was a close call; you could make a compelling argument that the accidental DID affect the non-indciated octave based on the harmony.

 

[jsf729]

I would think that the accidental is valid for the whole measure, regardless of pitch (or at least, that is how I have been taught).

Same here. But it's a great question. If it were me, I'd probably put a natural sign on the octave regardless to avoid any confusion. No rule says I can't!

 

[lurk]

If in doubt, put in a "courtesy" accidental. The rule is that the accidental applies only to the octave it's in, but this is not always followed, and you sometimes have to use common sense and your ear.

 

[BassiklyAC]

As was stated in a previous post, most notation software will recognize this and force you to make the necessary changes where indicated (the note in the other octave will require a sharp or flat as needed). I still use pencil and paper when sketching things out at the piano, but it’s a good thing to remind myself of from time to time.

Hope you’re all staying healthy out there and maybe some gigs are falling into place too!

 

[Les Fret]

The accidental applies only to the octave it is written in, and does not affect notes in other octaves.

I know this but s true but it is a bit strange and not logical since the accidentals at the key signature apply to all octave. You would expect the same rule for the incidental ones.

 

[Papageno]

I know this but s true but it is a bit strange and not logical since the accidentals at the key signature apply to all octave. You would expect the same rule for the incidental ones.

The point is that the sharps and flats at the key signature are not accidentals. There indicate what are the regular (i.e., not accidentals) notes of the key. Accidentals are, as the name suggests, deviations with respect to the key signature. This well explained here.
The accidental character of accidentals is what explains the convention that they apply only to the octave for wihch they are indicated. The convention could have been other otherwise, though, and is likely not followed by everyone; that's why I would personally always write a courtesy alteration (in parenthesis) to avoid ambiguity.

 

[MrSidecar]

It sometimes goes even further.
In New Music, where there is no “tonality” in the traditional sense, it’s common to apply the accidental only to the note it’s written to. I figure that since the tone material is chromatic (at least ) it makes more sense than to overload the eye with additional natural signs.

best
Sidecar

 

[Papageno]

It sometimes goes even further.
In New Music, where there is no “tonality” in the traditional sense, it’s common to apply the accidental only to the note it’s written to. I figure that since the tone material is chromatic (at least ) it makes more sense than to overload the eye with additional natural signs.

best
Sidecar

Sure, there is no need to carry further in atonal music a convention taylored to the needs of tonal music. I believed it just needs to be stated explicitely at the beginning of each score.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

I know this but s true but it is a bit strange and not logical since the accidentals at the key signature apply to all octave. You would expect the same rule for the incidental ones.

Well, another way to think about it is that the key signature exists to define the key, and for that reason it applies both to multiple octaves and multiple measures. An accidental exists to define how to treat a note for a very specific, limited harmonic or melodic purpose, and for that reason it does not apply to multiple measures[1] or multiple octaves.

When I frame it like that, it is very consistent. If an accidental applied to multiple octaves but not multiple measures, it would lose the symmetry that the official rule provides.

[1]: yes, yes, tied notes, we know...

 

[JK Piano]

Not sure if this is the best place for this question, but it's my best guess. If there is an accidental notated in a measure and there's the same pitch later in the same measure an octave down, does the accidental affect the 2nd pitch too? I've read contrary answers and so I'm wondering if there is a hard and fast rule or not?

e.g., in a measure of 4/4 with eight 8th notes: C1 E1 G1 C#2 E#2 G#2 C3 E3 G3 are the last three notes, an octave higher than the raised pitches, also sharped?

Please, could anyone lead me to the source/book of this image? I need it to settle a search in my music circle?? I will appreciate that a lot? JK