Double Bass Advice on bass line and chords for Bye Bye Blackbird

[Tom Lane]

Recently, I got to play with some very skilled musicians, way out of my league. I choose to play Bye Bye Blackbird because I have it memorized/internalized and thought I could play it well. I didn't, but that's another story. Regardless, I managed to stumble through the tune and the horn player commented that I "threw him off" when I implied a C7 when the lead sheet specified a G- (key of F). Appropriately chastised, I tried to "fix" my mistake afterwards but found it more difficult than I thought it would be. Apparently, I've played the tune for so many years that I've "drifted" from the actual changes with chords that I thought of as substitutions. Mostly implying a C7 where a G- was specified.

Figuring out where I went wrong, took some thought, recollection, and analysis. In the end, I have two choices, I can correct my leadsheet with the changes I actually hear, or I can train myself to hear the changes on my leadsheet, or, I suppose, something in between, and that's where I'd like your advice.

First, I remember when I first picked up this tune, ten years ago or so, that I didn't like the changes in the Real Book and listened to a half a dozen recordings and made my own chart based on what I liked. I like the chromatically descending bridge, and the chromatic turnarounds, for instance. Here's that chart:

Next, here's, roughly, the bass line I was playing over that chart. It's not the same twice, but the implied harmony is mostly the same even though I improvise the exact line. Still, it's always similar, I've circled where I think my line clashes with the stated chords and penned in the harmony that I think my line is implying, but let me know if you think I've made a mistake someplace. I think there are four "problems", three where I play a C on beat one of a G-, what I was called out for, and once where I play a G on beat one of a C7. I know that I can play the fifth on the beat one of the second measure of a chord that lasts two measures, but, obviously, a C isn't the best choice to support the harmony over a single measure of G-. Here's the annotated bass line and chart:

So, now, I have a choice to make: correct my bass line or correct my chart. Here's a corrected bass line:

Not VERY different, but now the bass line is in alignment with the chords. During my struggle to play the changes on my chart, which I found surprisingly difficult to do, I asked a vastly more experienced friend of mine to record a chorus of the tune for me. Here's what HE played: (I supplied the chords I think he implied with his line, but, again, let me know if you think I got something wrong).

IMO, the harmony that he outlined and mine are mostly the same. He went to a Bb^ in bar 5 and stuck with C7 for bar thirteen instead switching back to G-, but aside from those two changes, I think our view of the harmony of the tune is consistent, or am I missing something?

If it's correct that we view the harmony the same way, I think that means I should stick with the changes I originally cobbed together and re-learn to play those changes, not change my chords to match what I've been playing. Votes? Advice? Thanks!

 

[lurk]

This tune is kinda like a blues or Rhythm tune in that there's lots of different ways folks play it and they're all correct. With a really good band it'll change sometimes from chorus to chorus. As a bassist you need to keep your ears open and also not be afraid to take charge and play what you think is best at the moment. One of the things I love about my favorite walker, Paul Chambers, is that he finds ways to thread his way through the changes that allows multiple choices for the chordal instruments and the soloists. It's good to take advice from other players, but it's good to plant your flag in the sand sometimes too. If you feel like making a ii V into a longer V sometimes, do it and make the other cats deal with that. You're the bass player and you get to paint the picture the way you want to sometimes.

 

[Groove Doctor]

We discussed this exact song/chart a few years ago. IIRC @Chris Fitzgerald started that thread.

Some great insights discussed there about “landmark” chords vs variable chords. Well worth revisiting that discussion (if somebody could please find it and post a link here).

 

[crd]

One of the things I love about my favorite walker, Paul Chambers, is that he finds ways to thread his way through the changes that allows multiple choices for the chordal instruments and the soloists.

I love that about his playing. He was totally fearless and never let the changes get in the way of saying whatever he wanted to say. Not to everyones taste but I love it so much.

To the OP, maybe taking a more macro approach would help? Open ended tunes like this can be the hardest to play. Knowing the lyrics can help. Referencing a recording before you start playing with a group can also help so they know where you are coming from. It's great to have arrangements with groups you work with but that's not a great approach at a jam.

The melody will always show you the important corners. Can you hum the melody and play a bass line in two? It's a fun way to practice and will help you hear rather than memorize things. I've always been impressed with how Ray Brown sang to all the student in this masterclass I've watched a 1000 times.

For what it's worth, if you were trying to imply chromatic two fives on the bridge in your "corrected" bass line version, differently make the 2nd note a chromatic half step to the V. As is would sound like it's implying C- B- Bb- A-.

 

[Wasnex]

Have you seen this?

 

[coyote1]

Measure 10 in your corrected chart still has a problem. Beat three. You’re playing an F under a D7#5 chord. You already have the sharp 5 to add tension to the D7; if the soloist decides to key on the third of the D7, which is F sharp, while you’re playing that F, and then arpeggiates to the sharp 5 you’re gonna have an issue.

The chord is fine based on the melody. I would choose to play the F# in that spot. Perhaps walk down the half step to F on beat 4 to imply the return to G-7.

 

[DaveAceofBass]

Recently, I got to play with some very skilled musicians, way out of my league. I choose to play Bye Bye Blackbird because I have it memorized/internalized and thought I could play it well. I didn't, but that's another story. Regardless, I managed to stumble through the tune and the horn player commented that I "threw him off" when I implied a C7 when the lead sheet specified a G- (key of F). Appropriately chastised, I tried to "fix" my mistake afterwards but found it more difficult than I thought it would be. Apparently, I've played the tune for so many years that I've "drifted" from the actual changes with chords that I thought of as substitutions. Mostly implying a C7 where a G- was specified.

Figuring out where I went wrong, took some thought, recollection, and analysis. In the end, I have two choices, I can correct my leadsheet with the changes I actually hear, or I can train myself to hear the changes on my leadsheet, or, I suppose, something in between, and that's where I'd like your advice.

First, I remember when I first picked up this tune, ten years ago or so, that I didn't like the changes in the Real Book and listened to a half a dozen recordings and made my own chart based on what I liked. I like the chromatically descending bridge, and the chromatic turnarounds, for instance. Here's that chart:

View attachment 6997455

Next, here's, roughly, the bass line I was playing over that chart. It's not the same twice, but the implied harmony is mostly the same even though I improvise the exact line. Still, it's always similar, I've circled where I think my line clashes with the stated chords and penned in the harmony that I think my line is implying, but let me know if you think I've made a mistake someplace. I think there are four "problems", three where I play a C on beat one of a G-, what I was called out for, and once where I play a G on beat one of a C7. I know that I can play the fifth on the beat one of the second measure of a chord that lasts two measures, but, obviously, a C isn't the best choice to support the harmony over a single measure of G-. Here's the annotated bass line and chart:

View attachment 6997458

So, now, I have a choice to make: correct my bass line or correct my chart. Here's a corrected bass line:

View attachment 6997459

Not VERY different, but now the bass line is in alignment with the chords. During my struggle to play the changes on my chart, which I found surprisingly difficult to do, I asked a vastly more experienced friend of mine to record a chorus of the tune for me. Here's what HE played: (I supplied the chords I think he implied with his line, but, again, let me know if you think I got something wrong).

View attachment 6997460

IMO, the harmony that he outlined and mine are mostly the same. He went to a Bb^ in bar 5 and stuck with C7 for bar thirteen instead switching back to G-, but aside from those two changes, I think our view of the harmony of the tune is consistent, or am I missing something?

If it's correct that we view the harmony the same way, I think that means I should stick with the changes I originally cobbed together and re-learn to play those changes, not change my chords to match what I've been playing. Votes? Advice? Thanks!

In ms. 10 I believe it’s safe to imply a D7 for the entire measure, or a G min Maj7, but not a C7.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

We discussed this exact song/chart a few years ago. IIRC @Chris Fitzgerald started that thread.

Some great insights discussed there about “landmark” chords vs variable chords. Well worth revisiting that discussion (if somebody could please find it and post a link here).

I can’t find a thread about it, but there was some discussion in the thread about my video series when I released the theory video with John Goldsby about an impromptu performance of this tune at one of the Aebersold workshop masterclasses. Here’s a link to the beginning of that discussion: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/new-jazz-bass-video-tutorial-series.891553/post-19014815

 

[dperrott]

For jazz Harmony I think David Beckman's book Jazz Harmony is great. The Jazz Harmony Book by David Berkman | Sher Music Co.

 

[lurk]

I hope I'm not ranting here, but what I'm trying to get at is to debate the whole idea presented by the OP that he was playing with others "out of his league" who complained about his note choices. I never went to jazz school, and learned by playing with older guys who were often critical - usually about the more important issue of rhythm than note choices - so I appreciate that. But... sometimes you can instigate rather than support. Ron Carter talks over and over about choosing notes that kick folks out of their predictable comfort zones; as he puts it "makes them raise their eyebrows." Playing a C when the horn player might be expecting a G on that tune is not a capital sin; I bet I could do it and make it sound great. The guy who complained about that is showing his own inexperience with playing with really good rhythm sections and his lack of openness to new things. We bass players are not Jamie Aebersold recordings, we're part of the creative process.

 

[Don Kasper]

Tom,
In m.6 of the tune, there is a whole note "G" in the melody. A common and very supportive chord choice there is G#dim7. Amin7 - D7b9 is not a strong harmonic choice there. But, don't take my word for it, play it/sing it at a piano. It connects nicely between the Fmaj7 and the upcoming Gmin7. Try it - you'll like it.
IMFO, of course.
Thx.

 

[Tom Lane]

Tom,
In m.6 of the tune, there is a whole note "G" in the melody. A common and very supportive chord choice there is G#dim7. Amin7 - D7b9 is not a strong harmonic choice there. But, don't take my word for it, play it/sing it at a piano. It connects nicely between the Fmaj7 and the upcoming Gmin7. Try it - you'll like it.
IMFO, of course.
Thx.

And, as usual, you are correct. The fellow that recorded the chorus for me DM'd me to tell me that I got that measure wrong. He also thinks of it as Abo7 and instead of playing Bb Cb C A as I had notated, he actually played Ab Bb Cb Ab. And that's a good reminder to do my transcribing at the piano rather than the DB where it's easier to fool myself. I'll post a corrected chart and the recording in a bit. The performer of the recording mentioned that I misheard a few other notes, so I'll go back over it on the piano and see what else I can catch.

 

[Tom Lane]

I hope I'm not ranting here, but what I'm trying to get at is to debate the whole idea presented by the OP that he was playing with others "out of his league" who complained about his note choices. I never went to jazz school, and learned by playing with older guys who were often critical - usually about the more important issue of rhythm than note choices - so I appreciate that. But... sometimes you can instigate rather than support. Ron Carter talks over and over about choosing notes that kick folks out of their predictable comfort zones; as he puts it "makes them raise their eyebrows." Playing a C when the horn player might be expecting a G on that tune is not a capital sin; I bet I could do it and make it sound great. The guy who complained about that is showing his own inexperience with playing with really good rhythm sections and his lack of openness to new things. We bass players are not Jamie Aebersold recordings, we're part of the creative process.

No, I don't think you're ranting and you're are making a valid point and I agree with you. In this case, though, the band asked for my charts, which I gave them, and proceeded not to play the chart I'd provided, so that's my fault. I'm pretty sure that I got away with it for a few years because either I was playing with folks whose ears are good enough to adapt, or not good enough to notice.

 

[Tom Lane]

Measure 10 in your corrected chart still has a problem. Beat three. You’re playing an F under a D7#5 chord. You already have the sharp 5 to add tension to the D7; if the soloist decides to key on the third of the D7, which is F sharp, while you’re playing that F, and then arpeggiates to the sharp 5 you’re gonna have an issue.

The chord is fine based on the melody. I would choose to play the F# in that spot. Perhaps walk down the half step to F on beat 4 to imply the return to G-7.

Good catch, thanks!

 

[Tom Lane]

I love that about his playing. He was totally fearless and never let the changes get in the way of saying whatever he wanted to say. Not to everyones taste but I love it so much.

To the OP, maybe taking a more macro approach would help? Open ended tunes like this can be the hardest to play. Knowing the lyrics can help. Referencing a recording before you start playing with a group can also help so they know where you are coming from. It's great to have arrangements with groups you work with but that's not a great approach at a jam.

The melody will always show you the important corners. Can you hum the melody and play a bass line in two? It's a fun way to practice and will help you hear rather than memorize things. I've always been impressed with how Ray Brown sang to all the student in this masterclass I've watched a 1000 times.

For what it's worth, if you were trying to imply chromatic two fives on the bridge in your "corrected" bass line version, differently make the 2nd note a chromatic half step to the V. As is would sound like it's implying C- B- Bb- A-.

I think that's a good idea. I've done that on other tunes, and I do know the lyrics so I'll give it a try and I also agree that it's a good way to internalize the harmony, which I think I've done, just the WRONG harmony, or at least, not what's notated on my leadsheet any longer. And, I think I'll take your suggestion on the bridge. I got that line from Lynn Seaton, but I like yours better.

 

[Tom Lane]

For the benefit of anyone coming along later, here's the recording I transcribed:

Dropbox

 

[coyote1]

I hope I'm not ranting here, but what I'm trying to get at is to debate the whole idea presented by the OP that he was playing with others "out of his league" who complained about his note choices. I never went to jazz school, and learned by playing with older guys who were often critical - usually about the more important issue of rhythm than note choices - so I appreciate that. But... sometimes you can instigate rather than support. Ron Carter talks over and over about choosing notes that kick folks out of their predictable comfort zones; as he puts it "makes them raise their eyebrows." Playing a C when the horn player might be expecting a G on that tune is not a capital sin; I bet I could do it and make it sound great. The guy who complained about that is showing his own inexperience with playing with really good rhythm sections and his lack of openness to new things. We bass players are not Jamie Aebersold recordings, we're part of the creative process.

It’s not a capital sin. There are just other choices that might work better to more clearly delineate the harmony present in the OP’s own chart. The C on that works out to G-7 (add 11) /C. An unusual structure even in jazz.

When you become Ron Carter, you get to raise eyebrows. But when I’m playing with guys who’ve been around the block many more times than I have, I tend to pay heed to what they are saying. And if I’m sitting in with folks who are not in my regular rotation, I keep things a bit more straightforward than if the other players and I “know each other”.

 

[notabene]

Close your eyes and play.

 

[crd]

I think that's a good idea. I've done that on other tunes, and I do know the lyrics so I'll give it a try and I also agree that it's a good way to internalize the harmony, which I think I've done, just the WRONG harmony, or at least, not what's notated on my leadsheet any longer. And, I think I'll take your suggestion on the bridge. I got that line from Lynn Seaton, but I like yours better.

"Universal law is for lackeys. Context is for kings." - Captain Lorca, USS Discovery

The end goal isn't to play one set of changes but to be flexible. I guess that is a style thing but it's fun to play with people you know are listening and responding to you in the moment. Singing the melody and accompany yourself can let you know what bass notes help you hear the melody and what cadences are essential and which are flexible. (I.E. A million changes could work in some of the places in the tune but if you don't hit a dominant 7 on the third eight bar phrase your in trouble. )

I would kill for a lesson with Lynn Seaton!

Close your eyes and play.

Sometimes you do have to just go for it but It's a lot more fun to jump in when you know how to swim. Confidence on stage is earned in the practice room.

 

[Wasnex]

IMHO, it is often a bit weird playing someone else's bass line. The following is IMHO and YMMV, so please use what you like and ignore the rest.

My comments are based on what catches my eye in regards to how I believe the written line varies from the written changes, without the benefit of hearing it in context. What is written may work fine in the ensemble.

To me these sort of changes are not great for walking bass. One challenge is how to avoid the line becoming too repetitive. Take the first three bars for example. Each bar states almost the same ascending idea, and the same basic idea is used heavily throughout. One way around this would would be to alternate between ascending and descending.

Written Notes to Consider:
- Bar 10 and 11. The F under D7#5 should be F#. The F# under G7 should be F natural. Staying close to your line: |G, A, F# D|G, F, G D| ... A little different -- choose one or two of the following bars to sub into the line: |G, Bb, F# D|G, F, D, Bb|
- F# in bar 15. AFAIK this implies D7 which is not written. Is D7 being played?
- B natural in bar 16 against G min 7
- Bar 21-24 Try this |G, A, Bb, C|D, C, Bb, A| G, F, Db, Bb| C, D, E, C|
- E natural in bar 28 (b9 = Eb)
- F# in bar bar 31 (same as bar 15)
- B natural in bar 32 against G min 7...I am okay with the F# as used (tritone sub)

What is the point of writing this out? If it's so other bassists who can not read changes have something to play, the descending sequence at B is very cool, but I think I might write something else if the same notes will be played every time through the form.

AFAIK your written line implies a descending ii V sequence. I.E. the ii part of each measure may be perceived as outside the written changes. I would have to hear it, but I suspect it would clash with the piano/guitar if they stick with only the descending dominant chords. This is something I might expect to discuss with the harmonic rhythm players, so we are all on the same page. IMHO, when playing through the head, it's likely to stick close to the written changes, and there can be more freedom to play off the page during solos.