Arco Tone Quality

[BassiklyAC]

Hello sir,
I seem to get a very bright, sometimes scratchy, sound when I bow. I've tried using a darker sounding string - currently the Zyex strings by D'Addario - less rosin, more rosin, less pressure, more pressure, etc. and I have black hair on the German bow I use.

Will changing to white hair possibly give me the mellower sound I'm striving for? I love the sound the great classical players get where the hair on the string is almost inaudible and a lyrical almost vocal quality is achieved.

Thank you,
Adam Cohen

 

[PNeher]

Boy! you have hit the nail on the head for problems! All bassists have at one point in their career had this same problem, and it can create a lot of anxiety, especially when it seems to happen for "no reason!" But there is always a reason for the sounds you/we make. So consider ALL the factors of bow travel / sound making. Angles, Weight (do NOT use the word pressure!), Speed, and Placement (where between the bridge and fingerboard is the bow traveling) with relationship to string length (left hand is "stopping" the note where, or is it an open string?). Please read my past threads on these concepts (A.W.S.P, or W.A.S.P, or S.P.W.A, or.... get the idea? All factors affect the others). And check out my vids and look at the bow travel. Best to you!!
PN

 

[bassmastan]

Hey Patrick, I hope you don't mind if I jump on in

I struggled with this big time too. I thought that it was changing this that and the other thing. When it came down to it, it was my bow coupled with bad technique. At the time I was using a cheap brazilwood bow and I didnt have much training. Something that helped me was after tweaking a few things under my teachers guidance (I went to a CF bow, White Hair, Jade Solo Rosin) I started to really work on my technique. Purchasing art of the bow was very helpful even though I am also a german player, there is a certain type of weight and bow placement that you kind of have to feel out. Don't be afraid to play with your bow more towards the bridge especially with the higher register, when I am playing open notes now I play right around the middle between where the fingerboard ends and the bridge begins, its the place where my bass is most responsive. Finding strings that are responsive to your bass can also be a challenge, I have heard great things about Dominants, Flex Deluxe, Belcantos, and Corellis

Can you get a sound that isn't scratchy?

What might help is a long tone exercise on open strings and up major scales, drone the note until you can get a good consistent sound for each note. I have found long tones can help with intonation, sound and tone quality. One of the things the new bow allowed me to do was to play more into the string and to be able to hear myself, once I could hear what I sounded like, I could start to work on all of these things which is why long tones are fantastic.

Patrick is a master, and his advice is fantastic, I truly value his wisdom and find myself looking back at his old posts, answering my own questions. That being said a good teacher in the meantime might be able to asses this more in detail. To me it sounds like it may be more of a technique issue and less of a gear issue, as it seems you have some fantastic gear at your disposal, unlike my situation a few years ago where I was totally naive.

 

[PNeher]

Very kind and thoughtful post: thanks bassmastan!

 

[Mgaisbacher]

One thing that my teacher had me do was just simply long tones on open strings, usually D. Put the metronome on 60 and try to use the whole bow in 4 beats then slowly move it up. She says to go for 4-12 but I have tried to get up to 24 (have a couple times its pretty difficult) But by doing this you are only worrying about your right hand, look in a mirror and make sure your bow is fairly parallel to the bridge. I know with german you have to raise and lower the tip a little compared to french Also really pay attention to how you start and note and bow changes, practice both stopping the bow and resting for a beat before changing directions and also not stopping and trying to make the bow change as smooth as possible. Try to make the note even the whole way through and keep the speed consistent, divide the bow into equal perts so you are always moving it at a consistent speed.

Sorry it is hard for me to explain myself in writing but hopefully this is somewhat helpful. Also gear does matter but for example I use spriocore mittles and I actually really like them for arco playing, it took a little learning curve but I guess my point is focus on your technique and if you can get a solid sound and and it's still not what your after then think about other factors like strings and bows. Good luck, the bow is a different beast that I feel I will be trying to figure out the rest of my life haha.

 

[bassmastan]

You could also play the phone number game with long tones, let's take for example David Gage Instrument's (Shameless endorsement) 212.226.2950

Take your D major scale, and play D for 2 whole notes, E for 1, F# for 2, G for 2, A for 2, B for 6, C# for 2, Then D for 9, C# for 5, B for 10, A for 5... and so on up and down the scale however many octaves, using different phone numbers helps as both longtones, and helping intonation and tone quality, you have a limited time to focus. I would also recommend getting a drone to play either the root or major chord. You can do this in minor with any scale and any number.

Good luck, the bow is a different beast that I feel I will be trying to figure out the rest of my life haha.

@Mgaisbacher I used to think this too, until I learned that the bow was my friend... The reason being, that a good bow and a good bass will not lie to you... The bad is ugly, the good is beautiful and the in-between is mediocre you essentially learn what you sound like, what you need to work on, and it stares you in the face... It's like being criticized every time you pick up the bass, realizing it's always constructive is for you to figure out... just a pearl of wisdom

 

[Mgaisbacher]

I meant that not in a bad way, it's one of those things I accept and love that every time I make progress with the bow I'm presented with twice as many opportunities to do even more with it. And I feel I have quality stuff, my bass isn't going to wow anyone but it plays great and I do have a professional quality bow and it makes my life a whole lot easier.

My point in mentioning gear is that I know a lot of people try to blame it on their bow , bass, or strings when it could just be technical issues. Now if you have the money to go buy a Sue Lipkins (just first name to pop into my head) and an amazing bass by all means go ahead it will make your life easier, but if not I have still heard people sound great playing with a $100 bow on a plywood bass.

 

[bassmastan]

I meant that not in a bad way, it's one of those things I accept and love that every time I make progress with the bow I'm presented with twice as many opportunities to do even more with it. And I feel I have quality stuff, my bass isn't going to wow anyone but it plays great and I do have a professional quality bow and it makes my life a whole lot easier.

My point in mentioning gear is that I know a lot of people try to blame it on their bow , bass, or strings when it could just be technical issues. Now if you have the money to go buy a Sue Lipkins (just first name to pop into my head) and an amazing bass by all means go ahead it will make your life easier, but if not I have still heard people sound great playing with a $100 bow on a plywood bass.

You don't need a Sue Lipkins bow or an amazing bass to make an instrument sound good. However I've never heard anyone play anything that really brought chills to my spine on a $100 bow (edgar meyer found his bow on the side of the road, im sure that it is worth a few thousand even if he never used it and flipped it) and a cheap ply. Having gear that works is what is important for growth, what would you rather do, hammer a nail in with a hammer or another nail? You can do it both ways, one just makes life a lot easier. When you are at different levels you need different tools, most beginners start with glasser bows because they make for decent bows especially for young students, they are light and take a lot of abuse. I wouldn't recommend a fiber glass bow to someone on the collegiate level, and if you have the means to get better gear especially if it makes a significant difference, I dont see why you wouldn't, we aren't talking a cosmetic change or to be cool . On the note of the hammer and nail analogy if you have the right technique of hammering the nail, the right tool will be right for you, it is just as important to learn the right technique with the right tools as it is having the right tools for your level of technique, IMO they go hand in hand... (if that isnt too confusing)

To me it sounds like it may be more of a technique issue and less of a gear issue, as it seems you have some fantastic gear at your disposali

If you have ever tried to bow a string like Helicor Pizz or Pirastro Jazzer, you would know why changing strings are important, even hybrid strings are difficult to learn on just because their nature lends to a more pizz sound rather than a bowed sound. I wouldn't really compare spiro's to any of these strings, spiros were made for arco, and you can see as most cellists and some violists and violinists use them no problem, the upside to them is that they can be used as a great pizz string, the whole "spiros cant bow" thing is a myth, they are bright, they are harsh, and they can be unforgiving...

I gave these strings as suggested because they are more forgiving when learning to bow, I learned originally to bow on Helicor Pizz, moved to Kaplans, than to Passiones and now I am on Belcantos. Personally I think found the belcantos to be the most responsive to my bass Im just trying to help the OP get on the right track to helping with scratchy tone...



IMHO There are great ply's out there (Jerome Butler plays a Kay C-1), but I think we are deviating from the OP a little bit, and should probably focus on his situation. I think we both have the right ideas in mind, but this certainly isn't the place to argue, but to help.


Now @BassiklyAC could you tell us more about your setup? Or if youre studying out of a method or with a teacher? If you would like some bowing exercises I would be happy to share some that I received a long time ago that are "vomit" style exercises and longtone exercises.

Very kind and thoughtful post: thanks bassmastan!

Patrick you're making me blush

 

[Tom Lane]

The OP is one of my teachers. One of my best teachers, I should add. Great player - Patitucci should seriously be worried - super kind and generous guy. Anyway, I saw his initial post and offered to drop by with my bass and bows for some A-B'ing - I owe him a lot, aside from instruction, just listening to him play is a Master's course!

Not quite true A-B, because while our basses are similar, they're not from the same manufacturer and are pretty different models. Still we used my bows on his bass and his bows on my bass, taking turns.

What I think we found is that we were both able to draw a very pleasing sound from my best bow on both basses. I have Evah's on my bass and he has Zyex on his and I think we both felt that the Zyex is brighter with more sustain while the Evah's were darker with less, but both sang well even into the 3rd octave. I think I heard his bass have a bit more oompf in the lowest pitched register. But, both of us found his bow on his strings scratchy in the 3rd octave. With pizz, the Zyex 3rd octave’s extra sustain was an obvious improvement to my ear. On my bass with the Evah’s, 3rd octave pizz is pretty disheartening because of the near immediate lack of sustain. The Zyex are very smooth and very low tension, so very easy on the left hand. Adam's bass's string height was set a bit lower than mine. I've got mine set to about 6 mm for the G, but it certainly didn't make any difference in tone when he played it pizz. At the end of the day, I think Adam was very comfortable with the string height on hiss bass and I recognized that it can work for some players. Hopefully, Adam will correct me if I mis-remember any of these details.

Our conclusion was that it's not the strings. They both play great, but different, and will appeal to different players. The Zyex seemed to have more presence pizz than the Evah's along with more sustain, but not a bad amount of sustain. Our conclusion was that it's the black hair on Adam's bow.

I noticed a similar effect when I auditioned my last bow purchase when it was down to a bow with black hair and one with white hair. I really liked the black haired bow for jazz solos because it spoke so dramatically, especially in TP, but it was pointed out to me by the luthier that it didn't speak as evenly across all octaves. After a week, I agreed with him and bought the white-haired bow. I think Adam felt that the black hair was good for the primary bassist in an orchestra section because it spoke loudly and very articulately. We'll have to see what Adam thinks after he has his bow re-haired with white hair.

True mysteries, these bows.

 

[BassiklyAC]

Update on the bow sound discussion...

Just had my bow rehaired - had the black hair replaced with white - and it did indeed make a difference. Took the scratchiness out (particularly in the higher register) and added a bit of warmth as well.