Bass through DI only *church*

yahtzee1280

yahtzee1280

Oct 11, 2006
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oak harbor W.A.
#1
My church just got a new house sub and have decided that they didn't need my Amp anymore. That's fine, I have heard about a TON of people that just DI into the PA and play through a house sub... But. I just can't get it to sound descent and even this week I tried going through my ME-50b from that into the di box and it still sounds awful... Super flat sounding and I can't even play 2 of the strings on my bass cause it sounds like a whisper if I hit anything on the D and G strings... Is this because I'm only going through the sub and not the house speakers? Also I feel like there's too many things going through the sub and it just sounds like mud and I can hit my low G or F and have it barely be audible and then me and the keyboard hit the same D note and it spikes through the sub... I don't know if it's just me not like the tone (cause it's flat and sounds awful to me anyways) or if we have too many things through the house sub(should it be just bass drum and my bass?) I'm at a loss... I tried everything and I'm even using a my ME-50b and it only helped a small bit... It's making me not wanting to play.
 

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#2
Hard to tell the root cause from the post, but...
I doubt it's the DI. And no, adding a sub means frequencies below (say 90Hz) will go thru the sub, but there's WAY more that that in a typical bass feed.
It's more likely that you are NOT going thru the sub at all, and have no oomph in the mix.
I'm going to assume that the FOH folks are volunteers, and may not have set up the house for a sub mix - crossover frequencies, etc. - and might not be routing you there.
Don't know if they are doing aux fed subs, split main mix or what?
How are you monitoring the sound? If you are behind the PA, the sound out front can be VERY different (and much muddier) that listening to it out front!
 
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#3
When I was playing in church, I always DIed. Just straight in, no amp emulator, preamp or anything. My guess is that all the TB folks complaining about DIs can lay the problem at the feet of the soundpersons. Sit down with them alone sometime, say at the end of a band/choir reherasal and walk through your issues with them.

It's not rocket science to DI a bass. With most PAs, if you just set the EQ flat and bring up the level, you're 90% of the way there.
 
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#4
yahtzee1280 said:
Is this because I'm only going through the sub and not the house speakers?
Click to expand...
While we don't really have quite enough info, this is a distinct possibility. I have known soundguys who believe the bass guitar only belongs in the subs and, thus, only assign the bass to the sub group. These were employees of sound reinforcement companies, none the less.

Anyways, what you describe sounds just like that.

- John
 
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#6
The sound board probably isn't setup properly, they need to make sure the crossover is set properly, EQ it to the room, then make sure that everything is routed properly. After that I find that you have two options either let them EQ and control the sound and just live with it, or give them the best tone you can out of the DI and don't give them anything to "fix".
 
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#7
@yahtzee1280

It's not uncommon for people to play bass with just a DI, but you need either a monitor speaker or an IEM system so you can hear yourself clearly in the context of the mix. Based on your post, it sounds like you don't have either of these, and you are just monitoring off the back of the mains. I have played in churches that wanted me to work this way, and I told them either I use an amp or they find another bass player. They allowed the amp, but it was necessary for me to keep the volume extremely low due to poor acoustics.

So it's unclear if your concern is just with what you hear where you are playing, or with how the bass sounds out in the house. Low frequencies are essentially omnidirectional, but as the frequency increases, speakers develop pattern control and start beaming the sound out in front of the cabinet. So if you are standing behind or to the side of a PA speaker system and playing bass, you will only hear the lower frequencies that are wrapping around the speakers and radiating in your direction.

If you are out in the house and experiencing the sound you describe, I suspect the audio tech is hyping the sub to such a degree that you really only hear the extreme low range of the instrument.

IMHO, the subs and main speakers need to be dialed in to work properly. A crossover should be used so the frequency range of the sub and mains does not overlap, and the levels should be set so the frequency response is nominally flat. For the best system tuning, a bit of delay is typically used to get the subs and mains to integrate properly. This involves getting their phase to align as closely as possible throughout the crossover region.

Once the system is dialed in, if the audio tech wants more or less bass, they should adjust the channel strip instead of adjusting the subwoofer level.
 
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#8
yahtzee1280 said:
My church just got a new house sub and have decided that they didn't need my Amp anymore. That's fine, I have heard about a TON of people that just DI into the PA and play through a house sub... But. I just can't get it to sound descent and even this week I tried going through my ME-50b from that into the di box and it still sounds awful... Super flat sounding and I can't even play 2 of the strings on my bass cause it sounds like a whisper if I hit anything on the D and G strings... Is this because I'm only going through the sub and not the house speakers? Also I feel like there's too many things going through the sub and it just sounds like mud and I can hit my low G or F and have it barely be audible and then me and the keyboard hit the same D note and it spikes through the sub... I don't know if it's just me not like the tone (cause it's flat and sounds awful to me anyways) or if we have too many things through the house sub(should it be just bass drum and my bass?) I'm at a loss... I tried everything and I'm even using a my ME-50b and it only helped a small bit... It's making me not wanting to play.
Click to expand...

You absolutely need to be in the house speakers. Bass guitar is a full range instrument, in fact many people high-pass it so there's nothing going to the subs at all.
 
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#11
Wasnex said:
IMHO, churches are more likely to have extremely challenging acoustics, and more inclined to rely on volunteer audio techs who lack the aptitude and training necessary to effectively do the job.
Click to expand...

Depends on the church. But if they are spending that kind of money on their system, they obviously care about the sound. OP should take some time to work with whoever is working sound.

Frankly, most churches are built with acoustics in mind. I can't say that for most bars, clubs, and other smaller venues, who just take over whatever space is available in the strip mall.
 
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#12
buldog5151bass said:
Depends on the church. But if they are spending that kind of money on their system, they obviously care about the sound. OP should take some time to work with whoever is working sound.

Frankly, most churches are built with acoustics in mind. I can't say that for most bars, clubs, and other smaller venues, who just take over whatever space is available in the strip mall.
Click to expand...

I guess my experience is different. Most of the churches I have discussed the matter with did not spend any of their architectural budget whatsoever on acoustic design. The focus was more on the visual impact. Of course there are exceptions, but on average, acoustics and audio seems to be an after thought.

Also keep in mind that different acoustic qualities are required for different types of music. A string or woodwind quintet would sound quite nice in many large worship halls due to the natural reverberation and long decay time. These acoustic qualities also sound quite nice with pipe organ, but they tend to hinder intelligibility of speech and make it pretty much impossible to get a nice sound with bass drum and electric bass.

I agree that the acoustics in many bars and clubs is often pretty bad, but typically they don't have the long decay times and excessive build up in the low end that you are likely to experience in many large worship halls.
 
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#13
If possible, given the circumstances, insist on using your amp, even at low volume facing you, as a monitor. Doesn't solve any problems with the FOH sound, but at least you'll be able to hear yourself with a tone you like, which will let you play the best you can.
 
#14
Wasnex said:
I guess my experience is different. Most of the churches I have discussed the matter with did not spend any of their architectural budget whatsoever on acoustic design. The focus was more on the visual impact. Of course there are exceptions, but on average, acoustics and audio seems to be an after thought.

Also keep in mind that different acoustic qualities are required for different types of music. A string or woodwind quintet would sound quite nice in many large worship halls due to the natural reverberation and long decay time. These acoustic qualities also sound quite nice with pipe organ, but they tend to hinder intelligibility of speech and make it pretty much impossible to get a nice sound with bass drum and electric bass.

I agree that the acoustics in many bars and clubs is often pretty bad, but typically they don't have the long decay times and excessive build up in the low end that you are likely to experience in many large worship halls.
Click to expand...

I've been playing bars and clubs for 30+ years, and played churches for a decade - everything from little <100 buildings to St. Patrick's Cathedral. Some churches were better than others, and they tended to be echo chambers when empty, but usually were designed at least in part with acoustics in mind. Most bars and clubs were exactly what you didn't want - low ceilings and terrible acoustics.
 
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#15
All I can say is "Been there, done that"... even this morning. We don't have sound engineer, or even what I would call a sound guy. We have a choir singer that tries to be it. He's a nice guy, and he is trying, but it's coming up short on the bass end.

I bring my own amp in now, problem solved. Except for today, when I decided to run straight into the board because I was limping a bit yesterday, and I had some work to do with the sheet music once arriving.

Mistake that was. The amp driving the bass speakers was turned down to counter-act feedback issues, but it was back up this morning. No notice giving even though he has all of our email addresses.

However, in turning the amp volume back up, he heavily changed the EQ settings to fight that feedback dragon. Mids were way down, so was bass, and treble was jacked up so high, I had rolled off the treble completely on my bass with flatwounds. That even was not enough.

I give up. I should have known and brought my amp in!

The churches here have moderately okay, to poor PA systems, and really no sound guy available.
 
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#17
buldog5151bass said:
Frankly, most churches are built with acoustics in mind.
Click to expand...

Maybe today. But I think most older and more traditional churches were built more for visual impressiveness and their religious symbolism than anything else.

Most churches where I am are much better suited for use as natural reverb chambers rather than music performance spaces. The school auditoriums where I am have far better acoustics than that.
 
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#18
What can be frustrating is the "sound guy" that can't leave well enough alone. The good thing about playing in a church is that it shouldn't be much different week to week. We had some issues at my church and had a pro sound guy come in and set us up. We have a digital board and he saved the "scene" so would haven problems replicating the mix. It sounded great, but the church "sound guy" kept diddling with it and now we are back to having some issue with the mix every week. :banghead:
 
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#19
Subs can really be abused if they aren’t set up and operated properly. I visited a couple of churches here in Corpus Christi looking for a place to play, and holy cow, the subs were positively overpowering! I’m sure the kids in the sound booth loved it, but I have how idea how the older folks in the crowd could stand it.


yahtzee1280 said:
it still sounds awful... Super flat sounding and I can't even play 2 of the strings on my bass cause it sounds like a whisper if I hit anything on the D and G strings... Is this because I'm only going through the sub and not the house speakers? Also I feel like there's too many things going through the sub and it just sounds like mud.
Click to expand...


It sounds like you’re the victim of both a poorly-executed integration, and inexperienced sound techs.

As @s0c9 and @Will_White mentioned, the sub has to properly set up and blended with the mains. Then, the signal from vocals and most other instruments need to be kept out of the subs. Otherwise it’s just mud, as you have found.

Separate from the house issues, you need your own monitor, as @Wasnex and @dan1952 mentioned. I use an Electro-Voice ZX1 in this situation. It only has an 8”woofer, but it puts out enough bass to cover everything down to where you can hear the subs take over. I put it on a stool in front of me, to get it closer to my ears.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Ecclesia: Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
My Basses
 
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#20
What strings are you using? Without a preamp to push your tone around, the sound of your strings might not be to your liking.

Also - will be interesting to see if your sound guy is starting from a relatively neutral tonal profile, then adjusting from there, or 'chopping' the mids and highs from your tone, because, well...you know...bass.
 
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