Double Bass Bluegrass setup! Slapping! But also bowing?

[Riley Z]

Hello Bassists!

I am a classical player primarily, but with some bluegrass with a band on the side. I'm currently looking to convert an old plywood bass of mine to a bluegrass bass; I'm not great at slapping, but I'm learning and I want to set up the bass to favor the technique.

The tricky thing is that I also use the bow a lot. I'm super into the crossover players (Edgar Meyer, Ranaan Meyer, Paul Kowert, etc.) and I use the bow for textures, melodies, sometimes solos. I don't know much about slap-able setups, but my understanding is that strings made for slapping usually don't bow well (weedwackers, nylon). I was also hoping to have a lower string height, maybe use it for jazz too, but I hear that makes it harder to slap.

Any tips? String brand suggestions? String height? Thanks for the help!

 

[Jeff Kissell]

Evah Pirazzi Slap (full synthetic set.) The tension is great for slap and they bow well. You'll need to get the string height up to allow the greater excursion that comes with low tension strings.
10mm - 7mm (E to G) would be a reasonable place to start.
-J

 

[Feral Feline]

I like the Evah solo set tuned standard, though I'm looking forward to trying the Evah Slap set. Height is at 7mm despite requesting my luthier for 9mm -- I got used to 7.

 

[Remyd]

This is hard and I have been monumentally unsuccessful. I'm posting mostly to hear all the opinions.

The setup that works for bluegrass (sky-high) and the setup for jazz (fairly/very low) are just about diametrically opposed. The strings that sound best pizz often don't sound great arco. I have yet to find the set I like that matches my style (90% Americana, 10% Jazz).

The strings that I favor right now (Americana) are nylon Silver Slaps from Innovation. Pizz, they're dark and woody, with very low tension and a gut-like thud tone. They've made slap just a matter of adjusting angles rather than application of muscle. They've got a fairly satisfying click sound and have allowed me to learn to slap with almost no hand damage. Arco, they are hard to start, require tons of rosin, have very little sustain and sound a little like farts especially when digging in at the frog. 2nd/3rd harmonics could just as well be non-existent. I will never play Arco outside my house with these. Setup height is in the 1/2" range (12mm E) - really, really high - to let them bloom freely and get as much volume and projection as possible.

The ones I played when I was in school (90's) were steel-on-steel TI Superflexibles which bow well, have a nice ring and good sustain with harmonics that are audible without being intrusive. They are solidly high tension but hold tuning well and I used a set for 5 years without noticing too much fall-off after breakin. I had them setup fairly low maybe 5/16" (8mm E) and they doubled as Jazz strings without trouble. I won competitions and stuff without even thinking about changing strings -- I used to really like 'em. Then I moved to BG for a number of years. Now, they're like trying to groove using a chain link fence. I literally tore the skin off my fingers when I got a bass strung with a set a few years back.

My next set is likely to be Zyex Light, assuming that I can make enough money gigging to afford new strings, bridge adjusters, and food in the same season.

 

[neddyrow]

maybe i can help moving inward from the other side of the spectrum.

i have been mostly a slap player who is moving more towards more technical bass lines and wanting a little higher tension and lower string height.

first, for slap, the height has to be a little higher than normal. hopefully you have bridge adjusters and can find the highest setting to get a good snap but not lose dexterity.

second, string choice - i never liked innovation or other gut copies. hearing good things about these evah slaps by pirastro. i have transitioned from all plain gut to plain gut D and G with a wrapped E and A with great success. it's been my meter stick to compare other strings to. now i have red-o-rays for the D and G and Oliv E and A. they seem to all bow well and slap. i've read here you don't want to slap an oliv D and G too much as they fall apart.

i'd say put plain gut on the D and G with Evahs, Olivs or wrapped gut, then split the difference on string height and go from there.

 

[Mgaisbacher]

Depends on why kind of slapping you are going for as well. For what Paul Kowert does in Punch Brothers and Haas Kowert Tice, which is mostly here and there for effect and not a constant thing like some other slap players. I think most light or medium strings with a average setup height could give you that. (by average I mean G string at around 6mm and going up from there, which is also just my opinion of average)
Paul Kowert uses steel core strings, spriocore and permanents, with the top three strings being solos tuned to solo pitch, so they are pretty stiff but thin. Edgar has the same set up string wise as Paul. I used the set up for a few months last year and I am considering going back to it.

I know a few people who were actually quite decent slap players with low belcantos. Also to me the notion that slap means high action isn't always true. I know a few slap players who have fairly low actions but just super flexible strings. I am not a slap player by any means but it seems like these players just have a slightly different approach to slapping than those with high strings.

Also who have you been listening to? I honestly think Evahs or depending on how dark your bass is, Spirocore mediums or lights could be a good idea. My bass is fairly dark and sprio mediums work amazingly for me, nice clear arco tone for playing fiddle tune melodies but also great full sound when playing as a bass function. Takes a bit to figure out to mute the strings to get a nice thump but what I love about the sprios is that I am not limited to that. If I want a long sustained note, or some growl, or want to play jazz I have the sustain to do that. The only problem is that they are pretty harsh to slap on, part of the reason I have never dug into slap playing.

Also depending on what you want to are getting into slapping may not be the appropriate style of playing. If you listen to any old trad bluegrass (*disclaimer I am in no way a traditionalist*), Bill Monroe, Jimmy Martin, Flat and Scruggs. There is little to no slapping. Even in newer stuff, like Dan Tyminski, Alison Krauss, Micheal Cleveland, Adam Steffey, Bluegrass Album Band, Del McCoury, no one really slaps. Michael Bub is some one who is known for slapping but still uses it sparsely in a lot of situations, check him out on Noam Pikelny plays Kenny Baker Plays Bill Monroe. Also check out Barry Bales (Alison Krauss), Roy Husky Jr (Jimmy Martin), as well as Paul Kowert's playing with Dave Rawlings machine.

As far as people/ bands to listen to I can name many more, as far as more "trad" bluegrass the people I listed above are great places to start. For more Punch Brothers type stuff, Haas Kowert Tice, Chris Thile's solo albums, Bela Fleck acoustic stuff (music for two is a duo with him and Edgar Meyer), Mr. Sun, Darol Anger, Grant Gordy, Mike Barnett, and Alex Hargreaves. Also Grant Mike and Alex's albums have Paul Kowert on them. I would also check out Ethan Jodziewicz for some amazing arco bass coming from more of an old-time fiddle style of playing.

 

[Remyd]

Also depending on what you want to are getting into slapping may not be the appropriate style of playing. If you listen to any old trad bluegrass (*disclaimer I am in no way a traditionalist*), Bill Monroe, Jimmy Martin, Flat and Scruggs. There is little to no slapping. Even in newer stuff...

This comment makes me want to mention that I only use slap in very specific circumstances - there's only one lick in one song that gets percussive in our entire first set, and one 30-45 second solo bit in a round-robin tune in the second. I play that solo to make money busking whenever somebody says "Slappa da bass, mon". I think I've made more money with that silly fill than with any other single song, even solo.

Slapping hurts my hands and ears, but seems to be de rigeur, so I'll use it here and there. My buddy in the 'billy band can double slap at lightning speed and seems to make some kind of weird slappy-clacky-thunky-clickity noise every other tune. He also does that bass surfing thing, so maybe not the smartest buddy.

 

[Jeremy Darrow]

Bluegrass slap is a very occasional thing, listen to Mike Bub and Missy Raines to get a sense of what works in today's playing. That kind of sparse slapping can work with lots of different strings and setups if you work at it. Find a setup that works for everything else and then figure out how make your slapping work with that.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

I was thinking along the same lines as Jeremy. Mike and Missy do it all - on Kays with Spirocore Mittels.

Eric Thorin is another great player who comes to mind who plays pizz, slap and arco on Spiros (and sings tenor, too!!) - and really completes a band.

 

[68bassman]

Paul Kowert uses steel core strings, spriocore and permanents, with the top three strings being solos tuned to solo pitch, so they are pretty stiff but thin. Edgar has the same set up string wise as Paul. I used the set up for a few months last year and I am considering going back to it.

Are you saying that Paul and Edgar tune E, B, E, A?

 

[Don Hergert]

I'm a long time bluegrass banjo/mando/Dobro player who just recently added bass to my stable...

Over the years I've seen that there are a number of different approaches to bass in bluegrass. My biggest influence is a local bassist who has a ~50/~50 approach to slap/pizz and really presents a good rhythm and chordal background, but who also does breaks pretty regularly on the bass. His bass support is well liked among the local bluegrass circles, and he was a member of our band for a number of years so I've heard a lot of his work both on stage and in the studio. While I'm moving off in my own directions with bass, I often reflect on his style as a foundation.

I started out with Superior Bassworks (SBW) Deluxe Dirty-Gut spiral cut wackers. They are wackers, but they're really pretty different because of the spiral cut -- they play very well with both pizz/slap and arco. The only problem is that the E and A strings are very low tension and as such they are very low volume and not very clear. So with anything other than a very well volume-controlled small band environment, the E and A strings really cannot be heard. That means that there is a problem trying to play with most loud jams or most loud bands.

About 4 months ago I swapped in Innovation SilverSlaps E and A strings on my bass, keeping the SBW Deluxe D and G. The SilverSlaps E and A have wonderful clarity and a nice growl tone and their volume is a big improvement over the Deluxe E and A. And the SilverSlaps balance very nicely with the Deluxe D and G.

The SilverSlaps didn't bow very well at first, but after a few weeks and perhaps some layers of rosin on the strings and some technique changes, they began responding really very nicely to the bow. At this time they bow as well as the Deluxe strings do, so I'm pretty happy with them for arco.

I'm still enjoying this mix a lot, but I'd still like it to be louder for pizz. But, I'm coming to the conclusion that a double bass will never be able to keep up with uncontrolled volume in a loud jam or band unless the bass is amped. To that end I've been using the piezos that came with my bass along with a preamp and an amp as I sit in with certain louder bands. I haven't used it in a loud bluegrass jam yet, but I'm thinking I'll have it along next time, and will announce that unless the jam players keep the volume down, I'll turn on the amp. In a bluegrass jam, that will probably make a difference.

Regarding setup, my bass is an Alcoa, so in order not to sound too metallic, I've been trying to stay non-metallic with the strings as much as possible. My action with the SilverSlap/Deluxe string mix is probably at about 6.5mm at the E to about 5mm at the G at the end of the fingerboard, so the action isn't horribly high. My bass came to me setup for rockabilly, including a Deuce1 bridge matched with a custom Deuce tailpiece and Vic's Pickups Model C Piezo set.

I'm still thinking about other strings though. The Gamut Red Diamond Guts have my attention, as do the Innovation PolyChromes and the TI SuperFlexible Solos. I'm just waiting for more reviews of these strings, and also waiting for my SilverSlaps/Deluxe mix to be exhausted (which may take some serious time).

 

[Reiska]

Someone is going to say this anyway, G-U-T-S.

 

[Feral Feline]

Evah Solos tuned standard pitch, that's what I'll be putting on my AlCoA...

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Regarding setup, my bass is an Alcoa, so in order not to sound too metallic, I've been trying to stay non-metallic with the strings as much as possible. My action with the SilverSlap/Deluxe string mix is probably at about 6.5mm at the E to about 5mm at the G at the end of the fingerboard, so the action isn't horribly high. My bass came to me setup for rockabilly, including a Deuce1 bridge matched with a custom Deuce tailpiece and Vic's Pickups Model C Piezo set.

I'm still thinking about other strings though. The Gamut Red Diamond Guts have my attention, as do the Innovation PolyChromes and the TI SuperFlexible Solos. I'm just waiting for more reviews of these strings, and also waiting for my SilverSlaps/Deluxe mix to be exhausted (which may take some serious time).

I think your setup is rather low for these kind of strings. The G could be one or two millimeter higher and the E even more (10 to 13 mm). So I would try first 1 mm higher on both sides and then 2 mm if needed. You might even turn up 3 mm and lower the higher strings a bit at the bridge.
A lot of people say 1 mm height difference from string to neighbor, but I prefer 1,5 mm difference, that would be 6mm-7.5mm-9mm-10.5mm for metal would synthetic strings and one mm higher for naked gut strings (or similar low tension, higher stretch strings).
Starting with 5 mm is useful for (higher tension) steel core strings.

 

[Don Hergert]

Interesting... So, I'm able to get under the strings sufficiently for both slap and pizz, and arco also does nicely with the action where it is. The bass is sounding good and I'm not getting any buzzing. I've had the action higher and all it did was make playing more difficult, neither my band or I could perceive any improvement in volume.

Is there another benefit with higher action?

 

[Sean Riddle]

Are you saying that Paul and Edgar tune E, B, E, A?

Edgar Meyer does indeed. I personally can’t confirm Paul Kowert, but sounds very likely

 

[Reiska]

I think your setup is rather low for these kind of strings. The G could be one or two millimeter higher and the E even more (10 to 13 mm). So I would try first 1 mm higher on both sides and then 2 mm if needed. You might even turn up 3 mm and lower the higher strings a bit at the bridge.
A lot of people say 1 mm height difference from string to neighbor, but I prefer 1,5 mm difference, that would be 6mm-7.5mm-9mm-10.5mm for metal would synthetic strings and one mm higher for naked gut strings (or similar low tension, higher stretch strings).
Starting with 5 mm is useful for (higher tension) steel core strings.

I too prefer larger difference than 1mm between string heights. I`ve found that it works better for high setup / low tension strings that I use, with 1mm I`ve allways ended up with G feeling tight while E beeing sloppy. Bowability is also a issue if plain gut D or even A is used, with their huge diameter. Allthough string spacing plays a role there too, but I haven`t experienced with that.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Interesting... So, I'm able to get under the strings sufficiently for both slap and pizz, and arco also does nicely with the action where it is. The bass is sounding good and I'm not getting any buzzing. I've had the action higher and all it did was make playing more difficult, neither my band or I could perceive any improvement in volume.

Is there another benefit with higher action?

Usually higher volume unless the higher pressure on the top chokes your bass or is just at the maximum before choking will take place.
In that case you won't get more out of your instrument. I don't know the SBW strings, but I know the Silver Slaps. You can try naked gut, but that doesn't guarantee for any improvement in volume (and guts come in various tension, the cheap ones are often on the lighter side).

Since you are coming from smaller plucked instruments you might not be used to the higher tension strings of a double bass. Your setup is a lot lower than most players do with these kind of strings. Whackers and naked guts are starting at 9 mm height at the G usually.

For your heights I would prefer metal wound synthetic or steel core strings, steel core probably as downtuned solo strings or light/Weich, but the slap might get too aggressive with them.
I wonder how you can slap 5 mm at all unless you grab the strings below the fingerboard, but that is not my playing style.

Anyway, anything else than Whackers, synthetic core/synthetic wound, naked gut, synthetic wound gut or naked gut makes playing harder for you.

You should find a more experienced bass player to check your playing technique. Maybe you put too less power into plucking the strings. If the soundpost is placed far from optimal or the top of your bass is very rigid that might also be a reason for lower output, but since you are not used that much to playing double bass, I would let someone else check your playing. Let that person play your bass (probably also with raised string height) and listen. Take a third person which listens to both of you playing that can compare both of you from a listeners point.

 

[The Biz]

It's tough, in my limited experience (I have used plain guts my whole life), to get a good gallop going on low action. Plus higher action gives your slap dynamic range.

My 2.6 cents (0.02 in USD).

 

[Don Hergert]

So this is more interesting...

My main band's bass player isn't me, I play banjo for that band... But this band's bass player -- who is a known and experienced multi-intrument/vocalist pro in the bluegrass/country circuit -- really likes my bass better than his own, setup and all. He and I have talked about volume and he's said the bass puts out sufficient volume as is; it's not a cannon, but it's plenty for our 4-piece band. He's pointed to the possibility of louder volume with trying different strings, which is why I've been interested in that direction, with the caveat that the tone and playability will probably not be as good as what I've got for this bass.

That said, he's not a slapper, he usually plays straight pizz with a little arco for effects. And yes, he has a much more developed touch for volume than I do. So maybe that's the biggest difference.

I'll talk with some of the other bassists in our local circle too. One in particular is a pretty good slapper for bluegrass/roots music, and used to play for my main band so we can freely talk more about this together.

Thanks for the suggestions!