Double Bass C Major Diatonic Modes & Interval Structure

[jtlessons]

Hey, I have more students asking about modes and have learned that it is best to "dissect" the modes and break them down to their interval structure.

This way you can see the exact intervals that make the modes what they are. For example a Dorian mode is a minor scale with a major 6th interval. I like to then categorize the modes into major and minor families. Hope this kind of thinking helps. Thanks, Jeff

Bass Modes And Intervals by Jeffrey Thomas

 

[Adam Booker]

I do this the same way. I love the look I get when I say Jazz Melodic minor is a major scale with a flatted third.

 

[Steve Freides]

For example a Dorian mode is a minor scale with a major 6th interval. I like to then categorize the modes into major and minor families.

I think this is pretty standard way to approach modes: Dorian is minor with a raised 6, Phrygian is minor with a flatted 2, Lydian is major with raised 4, Mixolydian is major with flat 7. Standard, and good, IMHO.

I love the look I get when I say Jazz Melodic minor is a major scale with a flatted third.

Nothing jazz-specific about that, is there? Ascending "classical" melodic minor is also major with a flat 3. I usually teach this is:

C major

A natural minor - same notes as above, starts on 6.

A harmonic minor - same notes as natural but with 7 from parallel major.

A melodic minor - with 6 and 7 from parallel major.

And what you're left with differs from the parallel major only at #3.

-S-

 

[Adam Booker]

I think this is pretty standard way to approach modes: Dorian is minor with a raised 6, Phrygian is minor with a flatted 2, Lydian is major with raised 4, Mixolydian is major with flat 7. Standard, and good, IMHO.

Nothing jazz-specific about that, is there? Ascending "classical" melodic minor is also major with a flat 3. I usually teach this is:

C major

A natural minor - same notes as above, starts on 6.

A harmonic minor - same notes as natural but with 7 from parallel major.

A melodic minor - with 6 and 7 from parallel major.

And what you're left with differs from the parallel major only at #3.

-S-

I have found this to be standard in the jazz community, but in academic undergrad theory classes, they teach it the old fashioned way, based on rotational major scale structures. I know that's pretty general, and some schools may have moved into the 20th century by now. But when I have to explain jazz melodic minor, which serves a completely different function in jazz and 20th century music than CPE Melodic Minor, to my students in jazz theory and improv, I know they aren't getting this information the way we have described it above.

 

[Steve Freides]

@txstatebass, my background may be a bit unusual in that I grew up a jazz guitar player but went through college as a classical musician and later taught classical music theory at Mannes in NYC, but what I described is how I taught it to classical music students, so I'm now curious as to what "the old fashioned way, based on rotational major scale structures," is - please explain, and thanks. I did my Masters at Mannes and took 3rd and 4th year undergrad theory and ear-training at the same time. Although I did go to a more American undergraduate program at Temple U. in Philly, Temple didn't make me take a whole lot in the way of theory and ear-training classes.

-S-

 

[Adam Booker]

I'm referring to the old "dorian is just a c-major scale that starts on d" pedagogy. I will be very glad if I never hear that again. A very impressive resume, indeed. I'm grateful that someone who knows what they are doing is teaching the next generation properly.

 

[Steve Freides]

@txstatebass, thanks for the kind words. We're all doing the best we can with what we've got, where we are. My resume and 50 cents will get me on the subway.

I like to give some history when teaching these things, which these days are just to private students, e.g., to explain how _different_ music practice and performance was at the time the modes were in use and how, e.g., people quite often flatted the B in Lydian mode, etc., what's loosely referred to as "musica ficta" which makes a good Google for anyone unfamiliar with the expression.

What you're calling the old-fashioned way might, you're right, be a good enough explanation for a classical theory class, but it really doesn't at all address the way these thing sound, or gets used, in 2017.

@jtlessons, we're all in agreement with you for the most part - I don't find breaking the modes down into their individual intervals useful. My approach is that roots of the tree of Western music in all its forms is best thought of as the major scale, and everything else in relation to that so, e.g., I couldn't tell you the pattern of intervals in anything but a major scale off the top of my head.

This being an Internet forum, let me add something else that may or may not be related and will probably p#$% off someone - some people learn that a major triad is a major third then a minor third: C to E and E to G, respectively. This is true enough, but I don't think of it this way and I don't teach it this way. I teach it as based on the intervals C to E and C to G - the relationship of all the chord tones to the root. For me, everything relates to the root of the chord and that entire nomenclature comes from the major scale of the root of the chord, so the whole distance between components isn't something I've found relevant or useful to teach.

-S-

 

[Josh Kneisel]

@txstatebass, thanks for the kind words. We're all doing the best we can with what we've got, where we are. My resume and 50 cents will get me on the subway.

I like to give some history when teaching these things, which these days are just to private students, e.g., to explain how _different_ music practice and performance was at the time the modes were in use and how, e.g., people quite often flatted the B in Lydian mode, etc., what's loosely referred to as "musica ficta" which makes a good Google for anyone unfamiliar with the expression.

What you're calling the old-fashioned way might, you're right, be a good enough explanation for a classical theory class, but it really doesn't at all address the way these thing sound, or gets used, in 2017.

@jtlessons, we're all in agreement with you for the most part - I don't find breaking the modes down into their individual intervals useful. My approach is that roots of the tree of Western music in all its forms is best thought of as the major scale, and everything else in relation to that so, e.g., I couldn't tell you the pattern of intervals in anything but a major scale off the top of my head.

This being an Internet forum, let me add something else that may or may not be related and will probably p#$% off someone - some people learn that a major triad is a major third then a minor third: C to E and E to G, respectively. This is true enough, but I don't think of it this way and I don't teach it this way. I teach it as based on the intervals C to E and C to G - the relationship of all the chord tones to the root. For me, everything relates to the root of the chord and that entire nomenclature comes from the major scale of the root of the chord, so the whole distance between components isn't something I've found relevant or useful to teach.

-S-

That last part hurts me deep inside for some reason....I'm glad you don't teach it that way...I've always learned/teach triads by starting with the root and using the intervals from there (C to E is major 3rd and G is the 5th of C) ...I guess only time it makes even a little sense to think in 3rds is for diminished and augmented chords since the 5th is flatted or raised depending and makes the triad all minor or major 3rds....

 

[jtlessons]

Hey Steve, there is more than one way to "think" of theory and I have way too many students who are confused with your way of thinking. The point of the post was not to create a debate. It was to share a way of thinking that works for me and many of my students who are lost when thinking of the modes as "roots of the tree" from a Major scale. Always hesitant to post a perspective since it always seems to have replies that lean to the negative.

 

[jtlessons]

I do this the same way. I love the look I get when I say Jazz Melodic minor is a major scale with a flatted third.

Thanks Man, there is no need to make modes complicated and the simple interval structure thinking ends all the confusion allowing the player to focus on the sound of the mode and create lines.

 

[Steve Freides]

@jtlessons, if you post on their Internet, sometimes it starts a conversation - I'm not hating on you, just expressing my opinion. Two of the things I do with prospective students: I do first lessons for free, and I tell them I know I'm not the perfect teacher for everyone. If you're happy and your students are happy, may you live long and prosper.

-S-

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Agree with most of the replies above. I like to learn them in order form light to dark, so that there is only one changed scale degree from one adjacent mode to the next on the color scale. Also helps in learning the sound of each. Here's the handout that I use in theory classes:

 

[hhalt]

I'm with Chris on this. I have a similar hand out. Mick Goodrich refers to these as parallel modes as opposed to derivative-C ion, D dor, E phryg, etc.

I also came up with a chart of "modal chords" for composing purposes. Using modal contour-bright to dark, etc- is a great way to come with harmonic progressions based on modes.

 

[Don Kasper]

I like the idea of your Modal Chords approach - taking horizontal/melodic material and relating it to the vertical/harmonic dimension.
I think it's helpful (& necessary?) to hear Modes/Scales as both horizontal and vertical structures.
The check is in the mail, Hans.
Thanks.

 

[damonsmith]

I think it is best to teach where they come from - the old Dorian is a C major scale starting on D. Once the student has their head around the fact that the major scale contains six other different scales then you go into the specifics of each mode. So, IMO, the student should not have any of the above information withheld, but get all of it over the course of a few lessons and possibly revisit all of it at later lessons.
Anyone who can't grasp all of it won't have any use for just some of it anyway.

 

[damonsmith]

Hey, I have more students asking about modes and have learned that it is best to "dissect" the modes and break them down to their interval structure.

This way you can see the exact intervals that make the modes what they are. For example a Dorian mode is a minor scale with a major 6th interval. I like to then categorize the modes into major and minor families. Hope this kind of thinking helps. Thanks, Jeff

Bass Modes And Intervals by Jeffrey Thomas

A bit OT, but I certainly have an ethical issue with using tabs in a teaching context. Also, modes should be presented to students fairly soon, so "more students asking about modes" is pretty suspect.

 

[davidhilton]

Hey, I have more students asking about modes and have learned that it is best to "dissect" the modes and break them down to their interval structure.

This way you can see the exact intervals that make the modes what they are. For example a Dorian mode is a minor scale with a major 6th interval. I like to then categorize the modes into major and minor families. Hope this kind of thinking helps. Thanks, Jeff

Bass Modes And Intervals by Jeffrey Thomas

I always teach modes by both ways. Its somewhat easy to explain to some that if you go to the piano and play the notes of C major starting on the D and ending on the D, you have a dorian mode, starting on the E you have Phrygian, etc... Also I teach the modes by the difference between the maj, and the natural minor scale, meaning, lydian is like a maj scale with a #4, usually referred to as the "characteristic note", the note that differs from the maj scale. Same with dorian, it's a natural minor with a raised 6. Both ways are useful in my opinion.
www.basslessonslosangeles.com

 

[SteveCS]

I do this the same way. I love the look I get when I say Jazz Melodic minor is a major scale with a flatted third.

I prefer to think Dorian with raised 7th, given that both have a minor quality?

I can see how saying a minor scale is constructed as a major scale with minor 3rd might seem a little inconsistent given that maj/min quality is the second most important characteristic after the root name.

I avoid thinking in terms of Melodic Minor then I have to set aside the descending part.

 

[Scruffy_Johnson]

Assigning a "mode" to a chord doesn't do anyone any good - except to keep the tuition money rolling in. The student will sound like they are playing this scale with that chord - nothing musical there.

Modes should be demonstrated with a particular piece of music that is actually in that mode. This way the "feeling" of the mode is conveyed - in a musical sense, and then possibly absorbed and learned.

Running E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E up and down over an Emi7 chord (iii7), in the Key of C Major, doesn't work. The Mode is still C Ionian, NOT E Phrygian.

For the same reason the masses feel "happy" with a tune in a Major Key (Ionian), they will FEEL something with a tune in a particular Mode.

Good example:

This tune is clearly in G Phrygian (G, Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G). The Key Signature could be Three-Flats. However, this printed version is keeping with the tradition of indicating the "Minor-Group of Modes" (i.e. Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian, [and Locrian]) by using Two-Flats in the Key Signature (G Minor). This practice dates back before Bach. Nonetheless, "Beggar Boy" is in the Phrygian Mode - NOT based on the iii-Chord of E-Flat Major.

The feeling left after hearing this tune is Phrygian. The darkest Minor? ;-)

Learn the Modes, not Jazz-College scales.

Flame on!