carbon fiber as a laminate

Jan 4, 2020
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Before anyone asks, yes I searched, and no I didn't see anything....

has anyone had any luck using carbon fiber as a laminate? I'm wondering how it turned out. I'm not talking about carbon fiber rods for stiffening. as a laminate in the neck, or in the body.

My thought is that a 2x4 at the store is springy when laid flat on 4" side. Turn it on it's side to the 2" side and it's much stronger. Wouldn't the same be true with carbon fiber (depending on the "grain" of course)

Thinking this, I wondered how a neck would turn out with 1-2mm carbon fiber between layers on a laminate neck. Wood is expensive right now, so I figured I'd ask here instead of trying something at home.
 
It could easily work well, but I think there are possibly some practical concerns. Carbon fiber doesn't play nice with cutting/shaping tools commonly used for working on wood necks (i.e. carving with a rasp could be problematic. And I wouldn't want to shape such a neck with a power carver since it would throw dangerous shards of carbon fibers all over my workshop). I have never tried what you're suggesting on a bass neck, but I have done lots of carbon work in other hobbies over the years, so I'm speculating a bit here based on that indirect experience.

On the other hand, I do think you're on to something in terms of the best application of carbon fiber in a bass neck. Putting bars directly under the fretboard isn't "efficient" in terms of making good design choices on the use of the material. A neck is basically a beam - the back is under tension and the fretboard side is under compression. This is a problem if you're trying to design for stiffness - the back is smaller in profile (less wood), and usually the fretboard is made from a stiffer material (ebony, rosewood). And wood is bad under tension. So, necks tend to be too strong on the fretboard side and too weak on the back. Hence, putting a carbon rod right under the fretboard isn't the best location, you're adding stiffness where it's least needed.

If you search on the subject, you'll see that a handful of the builders on here have arrived at an alternate design. We put raw carbon fiber tow under the truss rod. There are a couple of different popular ways to do this, but the result is the same - carbon fibers down deep in the neck, as close to the back as possible, where they can make a big impact (since carbon is much better than wood under tension). Three or four small strips of tow - less than 1/16" thick - provides plenty of stiffness.

But in all of this, I think it's important to consider the ultimate goal. Are you trying to achieve maximum stiffness? That's a dangerous game in and of itself. It's easy to make a bass neck so stiff that the strings and the truss rod combined can't pull enough relief. So, ultimately, there's no real serious need to "maximize" the design, and it boils down to practicality and process - how does the material fit into your workflow? For me, it's really easy to add tow under the truss rod, so when I think a neck needs more stiffness, that's what I do. The only adjustments to the process are cutting the slot slightly deeper. It's less work and less time (and much less cost) than putting pultruded bars in their own channels on either side of the rod. And it's probably easier - less mess, less potential issues with carving - than putting laminates vertically in the neck. But you may arrive at a different answer based on how you work.
 
If you search on the subject, you'll see that a handful of the builders on here have arrived at an alternate design. We put raw carbon fiber tow under the truss rod. There are a couple of different popular ways to do this, but the result is the same - carbon fibers down deep in the neck, as close to the back as possible, where they can make a big impact (since carbon is much better than wood under tension). Three or four small strips of tow - less than 1/16" thick - provides plenty of stiffness.

I didn't think of the dust getting everywhere or shaping issues. It probably would still have issues with CNC for that matter. The section I quoted above..... perhaps I'm tired, but what do you mean by tow?
 
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Tow is basically the carbon fiber equivalent of yarn. It's a collection of fibers. When composites manufacturers make woven cloth, or pultruded bars, or other fiber products, they use tow as their raw material. You can buy the tow yourself and use it raw. Like any composite fiber product, it needs to be embedded in a matrix, usually epoxy resin for our purposes. Individual carbon fibers are actually very flexible, but they have incredible tensile strength and effectively zero stretch. Because of this property, you can lock them in a matrix and the solid that's created is incredibly stiff. Trying to bend the resulting composite product puts fibers on the outer side of the bend in tension - and they don't stretch or deform at all, so the product feels very stiff even though it's essentially made out of tiny flexible fibers. Pretty cool stuff.

Tow is sold by a fiber count, usually expressed as "k" i.e. thousands. Common values are 3k, 6k, 12k, 24k, etc. 6k or 12k are probably best for this application but most people doing this adjust the stiffness by using multiple lengths, so you have some adjustment range (i.e you can use four lengths of 3k or two lengths of 6k to equal one length of 12k). That's another good advantage over using pultruded bars - you can taper the tow reinforcement to get more stiffness near the heel and less near the headstock, for instance. Or finely adjust it for different neck designs - I don't put any tow in necks made from very stiff woods or with very stiff fretboard materials (say, straight maple with purpleheart stringers and purpleheart or ebony fretboard), but I can use more in a neck made from less stiff woods with a less stiff fretboard (say, figured maple for both) and less in a neck that has a medium stiffness (say, straight grained maple and rosewood fretboard).

There have been a bunch of threads showing how this all works, @Bruce Johnson has written about it several times and is definitely the Luthier's Corner champion of this approach. I showed my version in my currently in-progress build thread here:

Build thread: walnut, maple, buckeye burl, pickups, bridge
 
What constitutes a "strand" of TOW, is it just one pre-formed strip as it comes off the roll. I've read builders saying "two or three strands" of TOW, does that mean a stack 2-3 pre-formed "strips"? I used the CF pultrusions on my current build, I but I'd like to try the TOW on the next one.
 
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Modulus did something along those lines with graphite in the genesis models. Not a thin laminate but taking advantage of the strength when stood up vertically in the neck.
IMG_20190528_152510.jpg
 
...A "bunch" of carbon fibers...
This is 6K. ... so... there are 6 thousand fibers here?
(I'm new to this).
And, I assume taping the end before cutting is necessary to avoid a frizzy mess? View attachment 4358728

Yes, 6K TOW is a bundle of exactly 6,000 carbon fiber strands. Get out your magnifying glass and count 'em if you like. The individual carbon fiber strands are indeed very tiny, something like 0.0002" dia, I believe.

There's really nothing special about cutting the TOW. I cut it off the roll with normal scissors. It's about like cutting string, except it's not all twisted up. It doesn't unwind and fray out. The little strands pretty much stick together as a bundle.
 
There's no "tension" in the tow when it's on the roll and the fibers aren't woven, twisted, or otherwise manipulated to make the tow, so it has no motivation to fray or spread when you cut it like rope or string does. The fibers are all perfectly aligned along the length and they're all just totally soft and limp. You can sort of fan or spread it out with your fingers if you want to (useful in some non-bass applications where you want a thinner, wider reinforcement), or pull it tight and it'll bunch up. Or just leave it kinda-loose like it comes off the roll. It's a really unique material. It'll make much more sense once you play around a bit!
 
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Likewise, 2 strands of 6K is the same as one strand of 12K, and 4 strands of 6K is the same as 2 strands of 12k is the same as one strand of 24K.

That also works (roughly) in reverse if you split 24K. There's a bunch of folks with 10-20 meters of my 24K from a few years back build-off. A few have even used some of it.