Double Bass Chestnut vs white hair

Selim

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Jun 2, 2008
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I purchased a Prowchonik bow a few years ago, that came with good quality white hair. When it came time for a rehair, I had chestnut hair put on as an experiment.

Now it’s time for another rehair, but I don’t recall what the original white hair was like on this bow.

Has anyone done the same drill with one of their bows and can enlighten me on the difference? Again - on the same bow.

Trying to decide whether to go back to the white or not…
Thanks!
 
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I've gone back and forth on a couple bows. I really think it depends on the bow and the sound you're after.

I have one bow that sounds better with white, two that I like better with chestnut, and something new that I haven't been able to compare yet.
If you're happy with chestnut and not doing a lot of legit solo playing, I'd just stick with it. It's a really good all-around sound.
 
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I can't address the issue of the same bow, but what I've read on the internet -- which of course has to be true :D -- is that black hair holds rosin better and therefore starts and plays the notes better...

I have among my modest bow collection an older CF bow with white and a similar new CF bow with black, but I'm not sure I'm good enough with arco to really tell the difference, plus I've just recently changed to more bow friendly strings so that has thrown my senses off.

So I'd ask, what is really the playing difference between white and black (or chestnut) bow hair? And, if dark hair simply holds rosin better, could a person just as easily improve with white hair by changing rosin?

(I hope those aren't hopeless newbie questions.)
 
I always ask for black hair, because I like it, but I have no science upon which to base that preference. I suspect the question is something like the "tonewood" question for solid-body electric guitars - too many variables to answer authoritatively. Hair qualities, bow, strings, bass, and player are all factors.

... if dark hair simply holds rosin better, could a person just as easily improve with white hair by changing rosin?
I doubt it. The "if" clause is unproven, but if true, "holding rosin" isn't the same as "the rosin being held."
 
I always ask for black hair, because I like it, but I have no science upon which to base that preference. I suspect the question is something like the "tonewood" question for solid-body electric guitars - too many variables to answer authoritatively. Hair qualities, bow, strings, bass, and player are all factors.
There are nearly infinite forces in play here. And it is mostly a preference, just like with strings. Thankfully, there are far fewer choices when it comes to bow hair.

So I'd ask, what is really the playing difference between white and black (or chestnut) bow hair? And, if dark hair simply holds rosin better, could a person just as easily improve with white hair by changing rosin?

(I hope those aren't hopeless newbie questions.)
Gotta be a thread about that somewhere on here. I would say that the hair is responsible for about 30% of the sound you get (see above) and of that 30%, 70% comes from the condition & quality of the hair. Regular rehairs are important; once a year at least. I have bows (bass bows in particular) come across my bench that have clearly been neglected for a looong time. Once returned to the owner, he or she is "amazed at how much better it plays!" And then waits another 10 years to get a rehair....
 
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I always ask for black hair, because I like it, but I have no science upon which to base that preference. I suspect the question is something like the "tonewood" question for solid-body electric guitars - too many variables to answer authoritatively. Hair qualities, bow, strings, bass, and player are all factors.


I doubt it. The "if" clause is unproven, but if true, "holding rosin" isn't the same as "the rosin being held."
Yes always lots of variables and the question of bow hair differences is nebulous. I thought by limiting the question to one person trying both kinds of hair on the same bow (and hopefully the same bass), that would narrow things down.

I can answer my own question a little bit by saying that when it comes to “grab”, I haven’t experienced a big difference between white, black or chestnut. High quality white hair seems to grab just as well as the others.

I guess I’m really asking about tonal differences. I don’t remember what this particular bow sounded like with white hair..

https://www.talkbass.com/members/louisf.31736/? You’ve had the same bow..
 
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I have had chestnut and white on my good bow. In my experience, the quality of the hair varies more than the color, between the two. A good rehair by someone who's getting good quality hair, it won't matter too much what color you choose between those two.

I have never had black hair on my good bow, but I have had black hair on other bows and my experience is that while it can be grabby, it has a graininess to the sound that I don't like and that I don't hear with good chestnut or white hair.
 
If you're happy with chestnut and not doing a lot of legit solo playing, I'd just stick with it. It's a really good all-around sound
I think you hit it with “a really good all-around sound”. That’s what I’m finding.

I have had chestnut and white on my good bow. In my experience, the quality of the hair varies more than the color, between the two.
An important, maybe even essential variable. When a rehair is done by an expert and with high quality hair, maybe the type of hair becomes a secondary factor..
 
I remember the Prochonik bows being very happy with good quality white hair: they are light and "racy" so I wouldn't put black hair on them, for sure. I have one bow, the Arcus Concerto, with chestnut hair, and it improved the warmth on that bow (at least in my imagination). I think it can't hurt as an experiment to go back to white for a while. At least the experience will be fresh in your memory for the next rehair.
 
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If you got your bow directly from Prochownik he used Canadian white hair, which is not common in the bow market. He lived in Winnipeg for quite a while and might have had a local source for hair, as I can't think of any of the big hair suppliers that are selling Canadian hair as an option. From my experience with my own, two from a colleague that inspired me to order one, and a half a dozen or so others that were in my bass playing circle at the time, it is great hair, but very slightly coarser than the white that you will see from shops/rehairers offering white hair.

If it has been rehaired by anyone else or if Prochownik has changed hair suppliers, then it could have been a more typical/common white. A lot of people have a slightly coarser grade of white for bass or will blend a bit of it in with what they use for violin, viola, cello, etc. with the assumption that there is such a thing as "too fine" on a bass bow. Some people put the same hair in everything and white means the white they use in violin bows too, so it's worth asking what your rehairer does.

If you have access to the hair before it goes in a bow/has rosin on it, there are very fine whites out there where the hair is very thin, smooth, delicate, and has a lot of stretch in it. Many players equate that to the sound they get out of it too, where they find it to be a smoother, more delicate, more flexible, and lighter sound. This tends to be the recommendation for people who are doing a lot of solo, chamber music, small ensemble work, and sometimes recordings, for a "pure" sound.

Black hair on the other end of the spectrum tends to be much coarser, thicker, rougher, not as delicate, and doesn't have as much stretch to it. This tends to be more grab, holds rosin better or holds more of it, and it can be more of a brute/blunt force weapon, that comes with a bit more grit, sizzle, or roughness in the sound. While the end of that list might sound like negative characteristics, they tend to disappear farther into a bigger hall, or beneath the sound of a larger ensemble, and are usually considered worth the cost to someone who likes the benefits they get out of black.

Chestnut is somewhere in the middle, leaning 60-75% more towards the black end of the spectrum. It is coarser than white, but not as extreme as black can be. A salt and pepper blend of white and black can be compared to chestnut in many ways, although that also depends on what the percentage of the blend is. It can be a "best of both worlds" where you still feel the positives of black without the trade offs, without completely loosing the niceties of white. It can also be a "master of none" where you feel like you've lost the benefits of both ends of the spectrum. When I was offering it as an option, it was something that players either loved or hated, I didn't see a lot of middle ground opinions on it.

All of which can be emphasized by rosin choice too, with harder rosins tending towards the white hair characteristics, and softer tending towards the black.

I always found my Prochownik wants to play light, delicate, solo-ish, higher up the instrument, and gives a really clear sound that's pretty pure and focused, and white draws out all of those characteristics from me and that bow. Silver, chestnut, salt and pepper, and then black in that order seemed to be trying to turn it into something it was not. I have another bow that wants to play in the bass part of the bass and punch out orchestra stuff that seems to like black more than white, and instead of trying to compensate for what they are to some sort of middle ground, I've been happier leaning into their characteristics and switching between the two when I switch what I am playing.

If you like what's in there and how it has played with chestnut, don't fix what ain't broken. If you are looking for a little "prettier" sound than what you are getting, then maybe white. Either way, a good rehair is going to be a step in the right direction.
 
Black hair ... tends to be more grab, holds rosin better or holds more of it...
"Holds rosin better or holds more of it." This sure seems to be the case with the black hair I have on my bow. I can go four or five practice sessions without needing more rosin.
 
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If you got your bow directly from Prochownik he used Canadian white hair, which is not common in the bow market
Yes, a friend bought a Prochownik bow. He really liked it and sent it to me to check it out. (It’s made from purpleheart.)

I liked it so much that the same friend gave me Mike’s number and I called and asked if he could make the same bow - which he did. This was around 2019-2020, as I recall. It came with what I found to be good quality white hair, as best as I am able tell. Then I had it rehaired locally with the chestnut (Jenn O’Hara up in Brewster, NY).

I will try the white hair again with my impressions of the chestnut still fresh.
 
Purpleheart is a great bass bow wood, and Prochownik was using it far more frequently far earlier than a lot of other makers. I have rehaired a few of them and quite enjoyed them.

I too quite liked the Canadian hair and was getting interested in bow work when I was buying my Prochownik. It's just a bit different than what I have found other places/commonly had access to. I would be curious to A-B it against what I am using now. For lack of a better turn of phrase, "a different animal" from what I'm used to, but still great hair.

Say hi to Jenn, the O'Hara's are doing good work in Brewster.
 
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Purpleheart is a great bass bow wood, and Prochownik was using it far more frequently far earlier than a lot of other makers. I have rehaired a few of them and quite enjoyed them.

I too quite liked the Canadian hair and was getting interested in bow work when I was buying my Prochownik. It's just a bit different than what I have found other places/commonly had access to. I would be curious to A-B it against what I am using now. For lack of a better turn of phrase, "a different animal" from what I'm used to, but still great hair.

Say hi to Jenn, the O'Hara's are doing good work in Brewster.
Very nice, I appreciate your input.