Counting / subdivision

[Andy Mopley]

Hi Lynn

thanks for your contributions, I always learn something new! Can you offer some suggestions/techniques on how to count when reading a piece of music, I find it hard to keep the pulse in my head...For example, I find Beethoven's 9th easier to "count" in the first movement if I count in a fast 4 instead of a slow 2,which is where I struggle!
I hope to have made sense!
Also what is meant by subdividing in your head, something I hear the conductor tell us?

Thanks for reading.

 

[Lynn Seaton]

Hello,
I agree with you that feeling a faster 4 on certain pieces makes sense. This is especially true when the music is written in 1/4 notes and 1/8 notes. Sometimes the reverse is true. The music may be written in 4/4 but the tempo dictates the importance of feeling it in two: such as fast samba for instance. Subdividing in your head also makes sense. You should definitely ask your conductor for his/her interpretation, but here is mine. On a medium bossa nova tune, I hear the 1/8 note pulse as a straight 1/8 ride cymbal pattern or brush pattern in my head. Even though I might be playing a traditional 1/2 note oriented bassline, this works for me. On a ballad, I would be playing a 1/2 note oriented bassline, but hear the 1/4 note pulse in my head. If you watch videos of the great rhythm guitarist Freddie Green playing a ballad with the Basie Band, you can sometimes see him play the 1/2 note chords on 1 and 3 and play a stroke in the air on 2 and 4. You also sometimes can see him playing 1/4 note chords and the upbeat of his arm is the 1/8 note in between. (at least that is how it looked to me, but I never asked him.)
Please report back to this forum what your conductor said.

 

[Andy Mopley]

Lynn, thanks for the reply. The conductor explained as follows " in 6/8 time you can count 1 2 3 4 5 6 but if we say the word One Two Three Four Five Six
It's tong-twist, so Ta ta ta Ta ta ta is easier "

which I think is along the same lines as your reply. So the question then is if I use the ta ta method, presumably it is then a matter of allocating the right notes to the right ta, to keep the tempo...eg in 6/8, assuming 6 half notes, each half note = (1)ta A bit harder if you have a dotted eight note, though! Does it become ta-ti, where the ti is the dotted value?

Thanks for reading!

 

[Lynn Seaton]

Yes, I think the explanation your conductor gave is along the same lines. It differs in that he is assigning a syllable to the subdivided pulse as opposed to hearing a constant pulse in one's head (like an internal metronome). Assigning syllables to rhythms is a fascinating concept taken to an extremely high level in Indian Classical music. Here is a link to a video on YouTube with the master musician John McLaughlin giving an overview of the concept called konokol: John McLaughlin/S.Ganesh Vinayakram- Gateway to Rhythm - YouTube
The different note values have different sounds.

 

[Hector Wolff]

Andy,

You conductor seems to be counting the example you give as if it were in 2 - hence the emphasis on the first of each group of three.

I would count it as "one-and-a" "two-and-a"

Our conductor also does this.

 

[Andy Mopley]

Andy,

You conductor seems to be counting the example you give as if it were in 2 - hence the emphasis on the first of each group of three.

I would count it as "one-and-a" "two-and-a"

Our conductor also does this.

Good advice, I agree on the "one-and-a" "two-and-a", txs!