Custom Bass Rig Review

[Deloofs]

Hello TalkBass forum! Long time lurker first time poster. I am a drummer of about sixteen years playing death metal and metallic hardcore styles primarily. I have started a hardcore band and am on a quest to tailor our sound in accordance with my vision. My bandmates are onboard with this and seem to appreciate me taking initiative with new gear and new sounds. I've got the drums and guitar sounding very mean and it's time to tackle bass.

For the bass tone I am interested in split signal distortion tones. I enjoy the bass tones of Adam Nolly Getgood and what Kristian Kohlmannslehner would call a "modern dangle" bass tone. Some months ago I picked up an Ampeg SVT-3 Pro and Ampeg PR-1832HE cabinet. In my naivety I thought "Ampeg is great and this 18inch woofer will destroy" but I feel like I was mistaken. I'm thinking now that this combination is not really ideal for my target sound for a variety of reasons. We can discuss in the comments. If anyone has any setup suggestions to get the "dangle" tone out of these pieces please let me know!

So now I am theorizing about what an optimal rig would look like.


Goals for the rig:

• Loud enough to play gigs without PA sound reinforcement
  • Single guitar is playing through 50 or 100 watt all-tube amps with 4x12 cabinets (Blackstar Series One or Marshall JCM 900 MkIII)
  • Drums are gunfire loud
• Portable enough for four healthy late 20's/early 30's people to carry and fit in a reasonable vehicle
• Ability to send a DI to a mixer at venues with PA sound reinforcement
• Get as close as possible to 31hz low B pitch (this appears to be impossible with a cabinet size that is portable within reasonable limits. I am realistic about compromising on this).

Tone shape:

• Boost 31.5hz to 200hz
• Cut 200hz to approximately 2000hz (guitar will occupy this space)
• Boost 2000hz and up
• Cut everything upwards of 7000hz

The upper range here will require experimentation but frankly doesn't impact the design of the rig so much since the low frequency power requirements will dominate the design of the system.


Budget:
Budget is pretty flexible. I buy used gear whenever possible and have extensive mechanical and electrical design and fabrication capabilities and enjoy building things. Also have access to CAD software and a pro fab shop for some "government work" if necessary. I will be going with a rack system so I can acquire pieces incrementally to spread out the cost.


Here is my proposed rig:

Signal processing and amplification:

1. 19" rack (will probably custom build)
2. Power conditioner
3. Sansamp RBI
4. Compressor in effects loop. Considering ART Solo VLA
5. EQ in the effects loops. Considering ART EQ-351
6. Active crossover. Considering ART CX-311
7. Dual power amps. Considering matching used Crown Power Base 2 amps available locally. I chose these for their large power handling (900+ watts each in parallel bridged mono) and damping factor over 1000 which will be important later for maintaining transient response of the drivers.
8. Whatever pedals my bass player wants to use. She's partial to the metal muff for boosts and might use chorus, super short delay, and octave on occasion.

Cabinets:
For the cabinets I poured through Eminence's product documentation and found some awesome research and cabinet plans by a fellow named Jerry McNutt. Mr. McNutt took a load of Eminence speakers and either built and tested or simulated various cabinet configurations. I mostly compared Legend series and Kappa Pro series. In the end I think I really liked a dual cabinet combo setup consisting of one large woofer cabinet containing 18" Kappa Pro LF woofer with "medium vented" cab configuration specified by McNutt with quadruple round ports and a smaller woofer cabinet containing two Kappa Pro LF 10" woofers with dual round ports and also a BGH25-8 horn.

Large cabinet:

• 1x18" Kappa Pro LF
• "Medium Vented" cabinet specified by McNutt
• 700watts power handling
• High pass at 35hz to protect speaker from over-excursion
• Box tuned to 45hz
• Direct wiring (no crossover) to be powered by Crown Power Base 2 in parallel bridged mono with 900+ watts on tap
• Crossover frequency approx. 250hz (we will likely heavily cut 250hz with the EQ)

Small cabinet:

• 2x10" Kappa Pro and 1xBGH25-8 1" horn
• "Larger Vented Design" cabinet per McNutt doubled for dual drivers
• 600watts power handling
• To be powered by EITHER a passive crossover network (I can design and build this) OR channel two of the active crossover to be fed by Crown Power Base 2 either in parallel bridged mono or 2 channel stereo respectively

Some questions/considerations:
Kappa Pro LF drivers and the horn are only available in 8ohm so the smaller cabinet will have mixed impedance. I don't really think this will be an issue, especially if I use a passive crossover and design for it, but let me know in the comments. I could also possibly just use two horns to get two 4ohm circuits since the horns are pretty cheap but I think that's probably pretty unnecessary tonally since they're already so loud at just 25 watts.

Has anyone built cabinets with these Kappa Pro speakers? They have staggering power handling and excursion but do they sound good? Will they dangle?

How much distortion can the Sansamp create? I considered using a Darkglass pedal but I'd like to use rackmount equipment where possible becasue I think it's cool and because of the higher operating voltage for noise reduction but mostly because I think big racks are cool.

The tone goals will necessitate routing a lot of power to the sub 250hz range and specifically sub 50hz. Hence the massive power goal.

Is it valid to double the size of the 10" woofer box by doubling volume, ports, and drivers? Does that work?

Transient response - Is it worth using an active crossover with dedicated power amps to power the 18" woofer to maximize transient response? Initially I planned to build a 3-way crossover for simplicity. As I continued my research I learned about transient response and that larger drivers and ports contribute to lower transient response. I also learned that passive crossover networks increase output system impedance and essentially destroy overall system damping factor again reducing transient response. I figured that my 18" quad vented cabinet with passive crossover was probably the worst-case scenario for transient response. In light of that I abandoned the 3-way crossover and spec'd out the active crossover and Power Base 2 amps for their >1000 damping factor. Is this setup advisable? Is it okay to run the smaller cabinet with a 2-way crossover since that cabinet won't be seeing nearly as much low frequency and uses smaller 10" drivers?


That was a long post but I geek out bigtime about this type of stuff. I love designing systems to work together and I love fabrication and electronics. Obviously I could buy ready-made parts but honestly I really like the challenge and I love custom stuff and I think that I can design a system to meet my goals better than any pre-made hardware and probably for a lot less money.

Thank you for reading!

 

[abarson]

Not being into death metal, I've never heard the term "dangle" before. I'm guessing that it is related to "clank"?

While I can appreciate your willingness to delve into design, I've only seen one 18" DIY build in all my years on TB: 18" just isn't popular.

I know you're heavily invested in your design, but I'd recommend building a greenboy fEarful 1515/66. It is one of the lowest and cleanest cabinets I've encountered and is well engineered.
https://www.speakerhardware.com/prodimages/fearful plans/1515+66.zip

 

[Deloofs]

Wow that cab looks great! Does it have dividers on the inside? That thing has to weight close to 200lbs. We're spry but that might be a bit much to move up and down stairs. Do you think it could be built in seperate sections? Like the 15s in the bottom section and the mid range in the top?

I definitely considered using dual 15's initially but thought that my design would be limited by cabinet volume. I'll look more into the 1515/66 design. Thanks for the info!

Yeah I've heard that tone described as "clank" as well. Same thing as far as I can tell.

 

[Deloofs]

Never mind, I see that the 6" speakers are sealed back. Very cool.

 

[Doufuss]

Wow that cab looks great! Does it have dividers on the inside? That thing has to weight close to 200lbs. We're spry but that might be a bit much to move up and down stairs. Do you think it could be built in seperate sections? Like the 15s in the bottom section and the mid range in the top?

I definitely considered using dual 15's initially but thought that my design would be limited by cabinet volume. I'll look more into the 1515/66 design. Thanks for the info!

Yeah I've heard that tone described as "clank" as well. Same thing as far as I can tell.

Those cabs are built with 1/2" plywood and carefully braced to make a stiff, light enclosure. I believe some folks here have built them and they wind up weighing around 70 lbs.

 

[N Scott Shaw]

Found this Looks like you are cutting where you should be boosting. Nolly's tone lives in the mids.

 

[Medicine Man]

I agree that the Fearful is just what you want. All the engineering has been vetted and it really does align with your tone goals. If you can build the cab and crossover yourself and get a nice bit of power, it will be able to kick out loud and low better than most at a low cost, without destroying your mids. Add a high pass filter to your pedalboard to eliminate garbage lows and a bit o the overdrive and you should be well equipped for the apocalypse.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Hello TalkBass forum! Long time lurker first time poster. I am a drummer of about sixteen years playing death metal and metallic hardcore styles primarily. I have started a hardcore band and am on a quest to tailor our sound in accordance with my vision. My bandmates are onboard with this and seem to appreciate me taking initiative with new gear and new sounds. I've got the drums and guitar sounding very mean and it's time to tackle bass.

For the bass tone I am interested in split signal distortion tones. I enjoy the bass tones of Adam Nolly Getgood and what Kristian Kohlmannslehner would call a "modern dangle" bass tone. Some months ago I picked up an Ampeg SVT-3 Pro and Ampeg PR-1832HE cabinet. In my naivety I thought "Ampeg is great and this 18inch woofer will destroy" but I feel like I was mistaken. I'm thinking now that this combination is not really ideal for my target sound for a variety of reasons. We can discuss in the comments. If anyone has any setup suggestions to get the "dangle" tone out of these pieces please let me know!

So now I am theorizing about what an optimal rig would look like.


Goals for the rig:

• Loud enough to play gigs without PA sound reinforcement
  • Single guitar is playing through 50 or 100 watt all-tube amps with 4x12 cabinets (Blackstar Series One or Marshall JCM 900 MkIII)
  • Drums are gunfire loud
• Portable enough for four healthy late 20's/early 30's people to carry and fit in a reasonable vehicle
• Ability to send a DI to a mixer at venues with PA sound reinforcement
• Get as close as possible to 31hz low B pitch (this appears to be impossible with a cabinet size that is portable within reasonable limits. I am realistic about compromising on this).

Tone shape:

• Boost 31.5hz to 200hz
• Cut 200hz to approximately 2000hz (guitar will occupy this space)
• Boost 2000hz and up
• Cut everything upwards of 7000hz

The upper range here will require experimentation but frankly doesn't impact the design of the rig so much since the low frequency power requirements will dominate the design of the system.


Budget:
Budget is pretty flexible. I buy used gear whenever possible and have extensive mechanical and electrical design and fabrication capabilities and enjoy building things. Also have access to CAD software and a pro fab shop for some "government work" if necessary. I will be going with a rack system so I can acquire pieces incrementally to spread out the cost.


Here is my proposed rig:

Signal processing and amplification:

1. 19" rack (will probably custom build)
2. Power conditioner
3. Sansamp RBI
4. Compressor in effects loop. Considering ART Solo VLA
5. EQ in the effects loops. Considering ART EQ-351
6. Active crossover. Considering ART CX-311
7. Dual power amps. Considering matching used Crown Power Base 2 amps available locally. I chose these for their large power handling (900+ watts each in parallel bridged mono) and damping factor over 1000 which will be important later for maintaining transient response of the drivers.
8. Whatever pedals my bass player wants to use. She's partial to the metal muff for boosts and might use chorus, super short delay, and octave on occasion.

Cabinets:
For the cabinets I poured through Eminence's product documentation and found some awesome research and cabinet plans by a fellow named Jerry McNutt. Mr. McNutt took a load of Eminence speakers and either built and tested or simulated various cabinet configurations. I mostly compared Legend series and Kappa Pro series. In the end I think I really liked a dual cabinet combo setup consisting of one large woofer cabinet containing 18" Kappa Pro LF woofer with "medium vented" cab configuration specified by McNutt with quadruple round ports and a smaller woofer cabinet containing two Kappa Pro LF 10" woofers with dual round ports and also a BGH25-8 horn.

Large cabinet:

• 1x18" Kappa Pro LF
• "Medium Vented" cabinet specified by McNutt
• 700watts power handling
• High pass at 35hz to protect speaker from over-excursion
• Box tuned to 45hz
• Direct wiring (no crossover) to be powered by Crown Power Base 2 in parallel bridged mono with 900+ watts on tap
• Crossover frequency approx. 250hz (we will likely heavily cut 250hz with the EQ)

Small cabinet:

• 2x10" Kappa Pro and 1xBGH25-8 1" horn
• "Larger Vented Design" cabinet per McNutt doubled for dual drivers
• 600watts power handling
• To be powered by EITHER a passive crossover network (I can design and build this) OR channel two of the active crossover to be fed by Crown Power Base 2 either in parallel bridged mono or 2 channel stereo respectively

Some questions/considerations:
Kappa Pro LF drivers and the horn are only available in 8ohm so the smaller cabinet will have mixed impedance. I don't really think this will be an issue, especially if I use a passive crossover and design for it, but let me know in the comments. I could also possibly just use two horns to get two 4ohm circuits since the horns are pretty cheap but I think that's probably pretty unnecessary tonally since they're already so loud at just 25 watts.

Has anyone built cabinets with these Kappa Pro speakers? They have staggering power handling and excursion but do they sound good? Will they dangle?

How much distortion can the Sansamp create? I considered using a Darkglass pedal but I'd like to use rackmount equipment where possible becasue I think it's cool and because of the higher operating voltage for noise reduction but mostly because I think big racks are cool.

The tone goals will necessitate routing a lot of power to the sub 250hz range and specifically sub 50hz. Hence the massive power goal.

Is it valid to double the size of the 10" woofer box by doubling volume, ports, and drivers? Does that work?

Transient response - Is it worth using an active crossover with dedicated power amps to power the 18" woofer to maximize transient response? Initially I planned to build a 3-way crossover for simplicity. As I continued my research I learned about transient response and that larger drivers and ports contribute to lower transient response. I also learned that passive crossover networks increase output system impedance and essentially destroy overall system damping factor again reducing transient response. I figured that my 18" quad vented cabinet with passive crossover was probably the worst-case scenario for transient response. In light of that I abandoned the 3-way crossover and spec'd out the active crossover and Power Base 2 amps for their >1000 damping factor. Is this setup advisable? Is it okay to run the smaller cabinet with a 2-way crossover since that cabinet won't be seeing nearly as much low frequency and uses smaller 10" drivers?


That was a long post but I geek out bigtime about this type of stuff. I love designing systems to work together and I love fabrication and electronics. Obviously I could buy ready-made parts but honestly I really like the challenge and I love custom stuff and I think that I can design a system to meet my goals better than any pre-made hardware and probably for a lot less money.

Thank you for reading!

You want that amp, into an Ashdown abm cab. The ones with the blue speakers. Do t buy the ones with the white speakers. They're cheap quality, and have more mid presence. You want the blue speakers.

Since your amp is low powered, I'd go for the 610 or the 810.

 

[Deloofs]

Those cabs are built with 1/2" plywood and carefully braced to make a stiff, light enclosure. I believe some folks here have built them and they wind up weighing around 70 lbs.

I also see that the Kappalite driver is, unsurprisingly, very light due to the neodymium magnet. That's actually very light overall. The cab I designed for the 18" alone was looking like 90+ lbs just for the empty cabinet with no driver. I'm definitely interested in the 1515/66 design. I'm still on the fence about the passive crossover. I think active will give us a lot more definition in the low end. My bass player plays fast fingerstyle and I want that definition to come through as clear as possible.

Found this Looks like you are cutting where you should be boosting. Nolly's tone lives in the mids.

Thanks for pointing that out. I think we'll probably end up scooping a bit more than Nolly. We're going for more of a powerful low end with sparkly fizz on top. I listed him mostly because I like his signal splitting approach to distortion. We'll do some experimentation and figure out what works best for us.

 

[Deloofs]

You want that amp, into an Ashdown cab. The ones with the blue speakers. Do t buy the ones with the white speakers. They're cheap quality, and have more mid presence. You want the blue speakers.

Since your amp is low powered, I'd go for the 610 or the 810.

I'm not confident that 10" speakers will deliver the low B power that I'm looking for but I'll look into it. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Deloofs]

I agree that the Fearful is just what you want. All the engineering has been vetted and it really does align with your tone goals. If you can build the cab and crossover yourself and get a nice bit of power, it will be able to kick out loud and low better than most at a low cost, without destroying your mids. Add a high pass filter to your pedalboard to eliminate garbage lows and a bit o the overdrive and you should be well equipped for the apocalypse.

Yeah it seems like the 1515/66 is the way to go. Do you have a recomendation for crossover frequencies or active vs passive? I'm really digging the active option with multiple amps. Looks like 1khz and 4khz could work with the overlap of the three different drivers.

 

[Medicine Man]

The nice part about modern full range cabs with a passive crossover is that you can crossover your signal at the pedalboard level, distort the highs, maintain the lows and then sum the signal back together before it ever hits the amp. The passive crossover in the cab handles the power splitting for you. This let's you run one amp, and send an identical signal to the pa. Its all around better than biamping. The cheap but good crossover already has the right frequency for the specified drivers. Skip the tweet.

 

[BOOG]

I can’t make any constructive recommendations toward your ideals.

However, ideally, my approach would be to get the specific tone you’re after in the recording studio via DAW/plugins. Then, figure out from there the hardware it’ll take to achieve the tone you’re chasing.

Off the top of my head though, ideally, a Mesa Subway WD800 into a pair of Mesa Subway 215’s along with some choice pedals should scratch the itch.

Good luck with the chase and keep us posted how it goes.

 

[HolmeBass]

Drummer is gunfire loud you say?

Two thousand watt power amp driving two 1515/66/11 fEARful cabinets should do it.

Don’t mess w/ the fEARful X-over, it is the very heart of Greenboy’s design. FEARfuls are clean, articulate, and go very low, but they are not terribly efficient. You will not want for clarity or low end just as they are.

 

[Wasnex]

Yeah it seems like the 1515/66 is the way to go. Do you have a recomendation for crossover frequencies or active vs passive? I'm really digging the active option with multiple amps. Looks like 1khz and 4khz could work with the overlap of the three different drivers.

The design for the 1515/66 includes the crossover. There is a "cheap but good" version of the crossover that does not apply an LPF to the mid driver. You may like this version given the genre, because it has a more aggressive sound. If you want smoother high mids, use the "true 3-way" (T3W) design. The T3W cuts off the mid drivers, which eliminates a peak in their upper range.

You can download plans and related info here: greenboy fEARful 1515/6 Bass Guitar DIY speaker kit. Your own custom bass guitar cabinet (speakerhardware.com)

 

[Deloofs]

The nice part about modern full range cabs with a passive crossover is that you can crossover your signal at the pedalboard level, distort the highs, maintain the lows and then sum the signal back together before it ever hits the amp. The passive crossover in the cab handles the power splitting for you. This let's you run one amp, and send an identical signal to the pa. Its all around better than biamping. The cheap but good crossover already has the right frequency for the specified drivers. Skip the tweet.

are you talking about using a splitter like a Boss LS-2? We have an LS-2 and various distortion pedal options on hand so we can try that. I was planning to mostly use the presence, drive, and blend knobs on the Sansamp to get split signal distortion.

The only reason I’m considering bi-amping is to eliminate the impedance created by the passive crossover circuit to increase transient response of the woofers. I’m not really convinced that this is at all important because tube amps all have super low damping factor and no one seems to have issues with transient response with their tube amps but who knows. Sometimes I get stuck in the “because I can not because I should” way of thinking. I already have an active crossover and multiple power amps so I can always just try it both ways.

I can’t make any constructive recommendations toward your ideals.

However, ideally, my approach would be to get the specific tone you’re after in the recording studio via DAW/plugins. Then, figure out from there the hardware it’ll take to achieve the tone you’re chasing.

Off the top of my head though, ideally, a Mesa Subway WD800 into a pair of Mesa Subway 215’s along with some choice pedals should scratch the itch.

Good luck with the chase and keep us posted how it goes.

I was able to get really killer split signal bass tone out of Guitar Pro 7 of all things. I was using it for composition and over the years got pretty good at it and eventually was able to create very good tones with it. I actually stumbled upon signal splitting before I knew what it was or that it was popular by just fooling around with GP7. I’ve mostly been chasing that tone.

Drummer is gunfire loud you say?

Two thousand watt power amp driving two 1515/66/11 fEARful cabinets should do it.

Don’t mess w/ the fEARful X-over, it is the very heart of Greenboy’s design. FEARfuls are clean, articulate, and go very low, but they are not terribly efficient. You will not want for clarity or low end just as they are.

Yes I am the drummer and I am very loud

thanks for the suggestion!

The design for the 1515/66 includes the crossover. There is a "cheap but good" version of the crossover that does not apply an LPF to the mid driver. You may like this version given the genre, because it has a more aggressive sound. If you want smoother high mids, use the "true 3-way" (T3W) design. The T3W cuts off the mid drivers, which eliminates a peak in their upper range.

You can download plans and related info here: greenboy fEARful 1515/6 Bass Guitar DIY speaker kit. Your own custom bass guitar cabinet (speakerhardware.com)

Yeah I think the full 3-way is my preferred method. I’ll use the EQ if we want to boost anywhere.


Awesome info so far! I really appreciate the input!

 

[slowburnaz]

Did someone say Dangle?

 

[HolmeBass]

I use a 15/6 and LOVE it. I like it more than the newer Fearless design. I have an F112 too.

I will say a lot of times I like the added clarity the tweeter provides in the F112. For metal, with a distorted high end, I would dial the tweeters way back but not off. Having something above 5k seems like it would useful for clank, and in Nolly’s sound.

 

[smoothbrain]

Just be sure not to get the wrong color of speakers.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I'm not confident that 10" speakers will deliver the low B power that I'm looking for but I'll look into it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Yes, yes they will

That's 60 or 80 inches of speaker. Compared to 18" of speaker