Damping in speaker cabinets.

In thinking about bass combo amps, I was wondering if adding damping material in the bass reflex cabinets might be an easy and inexpensive way to improve or at least change the tone produced by these small yet effective amps. I have a recent Fender Rumble 40 and a Rumble 100, I inspected behind the speaker and neither has any damping material at all. Is this deliberate by the designers? Maybe just cost savings? Has anyone experimented with this idea or have any theoretical reasons for suggesting to add a bit of damping or to leave it alone?
 
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I just opened my cabs(Carvin Brx10.2) and was very surprised how "thin" materials they used inside the cabs. I also wonder that using "sonic barrier form" makes any difference??? :)
Of course I'm no expert, but I think it is important to put the right amount of damping in the right places on those cabinet walls. I've read suggestions that every opposite wall should be naked. So damp top, one side and the back.(?) Also too much damping will reduce any "presence" from the tone leaving it sounding too smooth which will need to be balanced by raising the gain and mid freqs. Too little damping may result in a honky boomy tone. I'd like to find the sweet spot where the correct damping helps create versatile and pleasing tone at any volume. And I'd like to get it right the first time. If zero damping is the right amount (as inspection of the Fender amps seems to suggest) so be it.
 
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neither has any damping material at all. Maybe just cost savings?
For sure. The first place you cut costs is where you can't see it. Line the entire cab except the baffle with an inch to an inch and a half of polyester furniture upholstery batting or mattress topper foam or half inch felt carpet padding and it will clean up the mids and reduce boom.
I've read suggestions that every opposite wall should be naked.
That theory dates back to the 1950s, when damping was only intended to prevent standing wave development, and it was wrongly assumed that if one of a parallel pair of panels was damped that it would be adequate. Damping standing waves is important, and to do it well all the panels need lining. Just as important is preventing reflections off the panels back to the speaker cones and out of ports.
 
I seem to recall reading an interview, factory tour, or thread where Bob Gallien discussed the lack of an acoustic lining in one of his cabs - the Neo 112II IIRC. He said that the design team listened to the cab with and without the acoustic batting material and they all agreed that it sounded better without it.

The physics associated with this isn't clear to me and wasn't discussed by him (as I recall), but depending on the cab dimensions, bracing design, etc. I can imagine there are circumstances where that could easily be the case. I'm pretty sure Bob was of the mindset that saving a couple of bucks on sound deadening material isn't as important as having a dynamite sounding cab when they're selling in the $400+ range.

To be clear there was a difference in the sound of the cab with and without the material, the GK experts and apparently the rest of us seem to like it better (or at least well enough) without that extra couple bucks of material. IME over the years, this lack of acoustic material helping the cab sound better is more of an anomaly than the typical case.
 
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For a loudspeaker employing a cone driver, acoustic damping material must at least line the interior of the cabinet if it is to accurately reproduce the signal being fed to it. The sound/tone of a bass guitar is a function of the instrument (wood body, strings, pickups, finish, etc.) and the amplifier and cab, as well as the player. There is no uniquely correct sound/tone for this instrument. Some players prefer the sound/tone with acoustic damping in the cab, while others prefer the sound/tone with no damping, and others prefer 'some' acoustic damping. If the OP is unsure, it's quite easy to experiment. Remove the grill, take out the driver, and add some acoustic damping. Play through the amp. See how it sounds. Write down your impressions. Change the amount and placement of the damping, and audition it again. Try a few variations. Pick the one you prefer.
 
For a loudspeaker employing a cone driver, acoustic damping material must at least line the interior of the cabinet if it is to accurately reproduce the signal being fed to it
My limited understanding of speaker and cab design trades and best practices, and slightly better understanding of physics, always led me to that same conclusion. Just curious if you have any thoughts or insights you can share as to how or when not including acoustic damping materials would result in a "better" tone/voicing?

We do occasionally see cabs without it and the typical comments are that it's probably a cost cutting meaure, but at least in the one case with the cab Bob discussed, cost was not even a consideration. I suspect you have proprietary knowledge and obligations to protect and may not be able to share everything you know on this topic, but whatever thoughts you can share would be of interest. Thanks!
 
always variables of course, but without material inside the frequency response will have more peaks and be more aggressive you could say. overall alot of people describe it as " louder" and with a quick comparison would seem louder or box sound . depending on size or shape of the enclosure usually also a node of cancellation will occur around lower or upper midrange frequencies. adding material will help eliminate this cancellation and improve overall midrange response and smooth harsh peaks. peaks caused in the overall response with no liner, i would assume mainly what make people perceive it as being louder.
 
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My limited understanding of speaker and cab design trades and best practices, and slightly better understanding of physics, always led me to that same conclusion. Just curious if you have any thoughts or insights you can share as to how or when not including acoustic damping materials would result in a "better" tone/voicing?

We do occasionally see cabs without it and the typical comments are that it's probably a cost cutting meaure, but at least in the one case with the cab Bob discussed, cost was not even a consideration. I suspect you have proprietary knowledge and obligations to protect and may not be able to share everything you know on this topic, but whatever thoughts you can share would be of interest. Thanks!

Firstly, I'm just a retired geologist, and a bass player with a long history of bass and hifi cab building - strictly as an amateur. With that said...

I think this really goes to cab voicing. The amount of damping and its placement depend upon the target voicing. There are no formulas allowing the calculation of the perfect amount and placement of acoustic damping material. A major problem to the calculation method is the need to describe a particular tone in a quantitative way. A numerical input would be required. Cab voicing is mostly done by ear. For non-voiced, hifi cabs, best engineering practices (crossover and cab modeling, and measurements of frequency response - on and off axis, distortion and phase - among others - are made. An engineer, who has a 'feel' for tone, designs and auditions prototypes having different drivers and crossover topologies. The best of these are sent to a few select players for tryout and provide feedback.

Unless a player simply enjoys fine tuning cab voicing, its best to account for voicing issues when purchasing/auditioning. The notion that a cab maker has not included damping material, or has not completely lined the interior in order to cut costs is, with the exception of low budget models, mistaken. If you find yourself wondering if your cab can be improved, you're probably best off doing some auditioning.

If a player wants to tweak a cab that may sound a little too aggressive or congested, adjusting the cab damping is an easy, reversible and potentially effective mod. For those who want to do a little tweaking here are a few guidelines. Placing some damping material on the area of the cab interior directly behind the exposed cone and ports has the most impact on voicing. Adding or changing damping on one of a pair of parallel interior walls pretty strongly impacts the tone. What can you expect to hear as a result of these changes. Only you can answer that. What I hear is the following: An undamped cab tends to have somewhat aggressive mids, sometimes even harshness, and can sound a little congested at higher (gig level) volumes - its hard to hear individual notes and overtones. Minimal damping on 3 (non-parallel) sides and behind the driver substantially reduces aggressiveness, harshness and congestion at gig volumes. A thin lining of all interior surfaces sounds much the same. Around 1 to 1 1/2 inches thickness (fully lined) the sound becomes hifi. At this point the audible effects of standing waves and reflections becomes difficult to hear. As we approach fully stuffed, the cab begins to sound lifeless, though a little less so for sealed cabs. The described effects strongly depend on the driver(s) open to the cab. The same damping amount and placement will yield different results with different drivers (and different cabs). Keep in mind that for some genres the harshness and congestion from an undamped cab may actually be desirable. There is nothing at all wrong with that. Also, that the changes to the tone made by different degrees of damping may be pretty hard to hear in a dense, high volume mix, especially if distortion/overdrive effects are being used. OTOH, I've heard some effects sound much better through a less congested cab - presumably, the sound of the effect was not masked by or buried in the congestion from the cab. You just have to try it and see what works for you. As a cab junkie, I have cabs for different desired tones. Just like with instruments. Want real Pbass tone - just use one. :)
 
Firstly, I'm just a retired geologist, and a bass player with a long history of bass and hifi cab building - strictly as an amateur. With that said...

I think this really goes to cab voicing. The amount of damping and its placement depend upon the target voicing. There are no formulas allowing the calculation of the perfect amount and placement of acoustic damping material. A major problem to the calculation method is the need to describe a particular tone in a quantitative way. A numerical input would be required. Cab voicing is mostly done by ear. For non-voiced, hifi cabs, best engineering practices (crossover and cab modeling, and measurements of frequency response - on and off axis, distortion and phase - among others - are made. An engineer, who has a 'feel' for tone, designs and auditions prototypes having different drivers and crossover topologies. The best of these are sent to a few select players for tryout and provide feedback.

Unless a player simply enjoys fine tuning cab voicing, its best to account for voicing issues when purchasing/auditioning. The notion that a cab maker has not included damping material, or has not completely lined the interior in order to cut costs is, with the exception of low budget models, mistaken. If you find yourself wondering if your cab can be improved, you're probably best off doing some auditioning.

If a player wants to tweak a cab that may sound a little too aggressive or congested, adjusting the cab damping is an easy, reversible and potentially effective mod. For those who want to do a little tweaking here are a few guidelines. Placing some damping material on the area of the cab interior directly behind the exposed cone and ports has the most impact on voicing. Adding or changing damping on one of a pair of parallel interior walls pretty strongly impacts the tone. What can you expect to hear as a result of these changes. Only you can answer that. What I hear is the following: An undamped cab tends to have somewhat aggressive mids, sometimes even harshness, and can sound a little congested at higher (gig level) volumes - its hard to hear individual notes and overtones. Minimal damping on 3 (non-parallel) sides and behind the driver substantially reduces aggressiveness, harshness and congestion at gig volumes. A thin lining of all interior surfaces sounds much the same. Around 1 to 1 1/2 inches thickness (fully lined) the sound becomes hifi. At this point the audible effects of standing waves and reflections becomes difficult to hear. As we approach fully stuffed, the cab begins to sound lifeless, though a little less so for sealed cabs. The described effects strongly depend on the driver(s) open to the cab. The same damping amount and placement will yield different results with different drivers (and different cabs). Keep in mind that for some genres the harshness and congestion from an undamped cab may actually be desirable. There is nothing at all wrong with that. Also, that the changes to the tone made by different degrees of damping may be pretty hard to hear in a dense, high volume mix, especially if distortion/overdrive effects are being used. OTOH, I've heard some effects sound much better through a less congested cab - presumably, the sound of the effect was not masked by or buried in the congestion from the cab. You just have to try it and see what works for you. As a cab junkie, I have cabs for different desired tones. Just like with instruments. Want real Pbass tone - just use one. :)
Thanks for taking the time to share those insights and your experience. That all makes sense to me and explains why I see so much variance when it comes to lining cabs - different voicing goals, different ways of fine-tuning to get there. It also provides a better context to fully appreciate Bob Gallien's comments about the cab he was discussing.

As with most everything technological, I often find there is as much science as art in getting to the final result. All these years around sound gear and bass equipment and I never really thought about much more than what sounds good and if I have the right electrical and physical compatibility to integrate things into a system.
 
because a reflex or ported box has open vents adding material is limited anyways. lining the cabinet is about only option which helps with reflection. it is most effective in actual enclosure volume behind the speaker, otherwise corners are always a problem, more material or lining added to rear panel or corners probably be most effective if you wanted to do a heavily lined cabinet as opposed to basic lined cabinet. loose fill will blow out ports. otherwise in sealed enclosure lightly filled box, half filled box and heavily filled box have different or more impact. Being able to completely fill the box with material since its in a more effective area. likewise absorption and leakage formulas are well known and the effects of lining can be modeled and heard as well between the 4 extremes of filling a enclosure. lining, light fill, half fill or heavy fill.

ive done experiments and also built special wire cages within a reflex enclosure to be able to review the sound of a lined cabinet, light fill and half fill since your usually limited to lining a reflex cabinet only with batten/woven sheets. i wanted to review a reflex with more loose poly fill more like a sealed enclosure to a half or heavily filled box. to see if there was real performance benifits, likewise to see if it behaved as absorption models showed. the models and cabinet construction was posted
 
I find it interesting that two of the popular double bass cabs, GKMB150 combo and the Acoustic Image ten2 cab are both sealed and neither has lining or fill.
Sealed cabs need lining even more than ported, because sealed cabs tend to have high Q, which gives boomy response. Depending how high the Q is sealed cabs might even need to be fully filled with damping, sometimes even compressing it.
 
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Sealed cabs need lining even more than ported, because sealed cabs tend to have high Q, which gives boomy response. Depending how high the Q is sealed cabs might even need to be fully filled with damping, sometimes even compressing it.
Yet these are good sounding cabs with no fill or lining....not that I doubt the general consensus about sealed cabs.
 
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They may sound good without damping, they'll probably sound better with it. Ask the question on a speaker building forum. If you say you plan on making a speaker with no damping of any kind they'll treat you like a clueless noob. The need for damping isn't a consensus, it's science. I looked around the AI site and there's a lot of very good information there, so the decision to leave out damping is a head scratcher, Jones must know better than that.
 
They may sound good without damping, they'll probably sound better with it. Ask the question on a speaker building forum. If you say you plan on making a speaker with no damping of any kind they'll treat you like a clueless noob. The need for damping isn't a consensus, it's science. I looked around the AI site and there's a lot of very good information there, so the decision to leave out damping is a head scratcher, Jones must know better than that.
I sort of feel like damping material is a key element of good cabinet designs, but I had to rethink that when I read/heard (might have been a YouTube video of GK factory tour) something from Bob Gallien relative to the Neo 112 cab (IIRC).

He was asked about why he chose not to put a lining in the cabs and answered that during the testing everyone (i.e. him and the testers) thought it sounded better without it. When asked if it was really more of a cost saving issue, he indicated that the cost of including it wasn't even a consideration...compared to the sale price the cost to line the cab was insignificant and he would have done it if it yielded a better sounding product.

I was shocked to hear that about no lining in the cab, but I suppose there could be situations where the physics and acoustics gods simply smile on an unlined cab.
 
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I seem to recall reading an interview, factory tour, or thread where Bob Gallien discussed the lack of an acoustic lining in one of his cabs - the Neo 112II IIRC. He said that the design team listened to the cab with and without the acoustic batting material and they all agreed that it sounded better without it.

The physics associated with this isn't clear to me and wasn't discussed by him (as I recall), but depending on the cab dimensions, bracing design, etc. I can imagine there are circumstances where that could easily be the case. I'm pretty sure Bob was of the mindset that saving a couple of bucks on sound deadening material isn't as important as having a dynamite sounding cab when they're selling in the $400+ range.

To be clear there was a difference in the sound of the cab with and without the material, the GK experts and apparently the rest of us seem to like it better (or at least well enough) without that extra couple bucks of material. IME over the years, this lack of acoustic material helping the cab sound better is more of an anomaly than the typical case.

I tried stuffing an old Traynor Big B for improve clarity. This was a sealed 810 that supposedly predated the Ampeg fridge. IMHO, the stuffing made the cab sound a bit dull and lifeless so I pulled it out.
 
I sort of feel like damping material is a key element of good cabinet designs, but I had to rethink that when I read/heard (might have been a YouTube video of GK factory tour) something from Bob Gallien relative to the Neo 112 cab (IIRC).

He was asked about why he chose not to put a lining in the cabs and answered that during the testing everyone (i.e. him and the testers) thought it sounded better without it. When asked if it was really more of a cost saving issue, he indicated that the cost of including it wasn't even a consideration...compared to the sale price the cost to line the cab was insignificant and he would have done it if it yielded a better sounding product.

I was shocked to hear that about no lining in the cab, but I suppose there could be situations where the physics and acoustics gods simply smile on an unlined cab.

I think that physics and acoustics had little to do with it. The answer would seem to be that GK and the testers simply preferred the tone of that cab without the stuffing. That flies in the face of the assumption that a hifi cab would produce the best tone. The design goals can be quite different. When I build a bass cab, I usually get the best bass guitar tone (my preferences) with 1/2 to 1/3 of the cab interior lined. However, the reproduction of music (recordings) is much improved by additional stuffing. I once used music to adjust the cab stuffing. The result was quite underwhelming (to me) for bass guitar.