Double Bass DB Not Loud Enough Even With HPF Pre

tonyp145

tonyp145

Apr 1, 2012
93
2
4,626
Kent, WA
#1
Hi folks, I'm sort of posting on behalf of my wife. She has a Shen upright bass and we installed a Realist pickup on it. Her teacher is a pro and confirmed that the pickup is installed correctly, but when we plug it into our TC Electronic combo amp (BG250 with 2-8s) we just can't get enough volume to gig. I have a passive Jazz-style electric bass that I play with that amp and it puts out plenty of volume, so the problem isn't the amp.

So I ordered an HPF Pre which arrived today. Plugged everything in, it's definitely louder, but I still have the volume on the amp cranked full (plus the volume on the pre is full and the HPF is all the way to 140 to remove the mud) and let's just say it's not as dramatic an improvement as I had hoped. I guess I was hoping it would step things up so it would be comparable to the output of the electric bass. As it is this rig isn't loud enough to play anything larger than our living room.

We have a 4-piece band (drums, bass, guitar, sax) and play a mix of jazz and "uptown" blues. I don't need her to be super loud, but I've heard upright players who had more volume on tap than this. Should I return the pre and get something different? Should I buy her a bigger amp? Can you guys think of any other "debugging" techniques I could try? Appreciate any help you can provide. Thanks!
 
#2
The stuff you have is nice, and I certainly wouldn't return the HPF preamp, its a gem. Is she a new player? Is she pulling an projecting acoustic sound? Getting a nice unplugged pull is more important to live sound on any piezo equipped instrument that something with a magnetic pickup. A lot of sound production issues on DB come from playing technique as opposed gear problems. I tend to be able to get a nice loud sound even with flakey backline and non-ideal sound situations because I've put a lot of work into getting a good projecting sound. There's a saying about amplifying acoustic instruments that if you amplify a wimpy sound, you don't really get a big sound, but a LOUD wimpy sound. You could get a bigger amp, but it really isn't solving the core problem. I would recommend talking to her teacher about this issue and having him work with her to address it. With some guidance, she isn't too far away with getting a nice sound with your current rig.
 
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#3
Double bass amplified with a piezo pickup and bass guitar amplified with a magnetic pickup are two completely different animals.

Aspects of the signal chain to examine include:
1) Physical tone production on the instrument: have your wife's teacher play the instrument through the amp and see if the volume of the amp feels different. The pickup only amplifies what is put into it. If your wife is a relative beginner, she may not be pulling a very big sound yet. Strings are also a big component of pizzicato bass sound. Do you know what kind of strings the bass is strung with?
2) The amp: try plugging the bass with the HPF into different bass amps and see if any get you closer to where you want to be.
3) if you have the option to do so, borrow a bridge wing pickup and compare the output of that to the output of the Realist. I generally don't care for the sound of the Realist pickup at all, but that's just personal preference.
 
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#4
I used a Realist for several years and the thing should be loud enough straight into the amp that feedback becomes an issue. That it doesn't even with the extra gain of the preamp makes me wonder about a fault in the pickup itself or in the jack. It can be a good sounding p.up on some basses but the naked copper under the bridge foot makes it a little more easily damaged than a wing-slot type or something like a Full Circle. First trouble shooting I'd do is check the jack. Then if you know anyone else using one check it against another Realist on another bass into your amp with your cables.
 
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#7
Also - 250W through a 2x8 designed for bass guitar may just not have enough crumb to get the job done for DB competing with drums, guitar, and sax. I see that amp has a secondary speaker output, so I'm curious if it's a full 250 watts without an extension cabinet.

The HPF will come in handy. I assume you have some version of the fdeck? I don't think those have much gain at all as a pre-stage if they have any. The earlier version I used didn't. They aren't going to give you a much hotter signal the way a traditional preamp with EQ controls would. It's simply for piezo impedance matching, and frequency filtering - both very useful tools for upright bass amplification.

I agree with everything @Chris Fitzgerald said as well. The only thing I might add is see if you can borrow a decent full featured preamp to run into the amp. Maybe the signal just isn't hot enough into the amp you're using.
 
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#10
I'd see if you can take the bass someplace that has something like the Fishman Platinum preamp to rule out that your preamp doesn't provide enough gain, which I don't think is the issue. I would personally lean towards some kind of issue with the pickup. 250 watts is plenty to get adequate volume.
 
#11
i learned what ric said the hard way - the Fdeck only provides a little gain. i'd try a different preamp. anything you have laying around just to compare with. then maybe add a flex or radial or something you like. keep the hpf in the chain though. it's what will make your bass sound more like an upright through an amp.

what i did:

i had josh broughton - @azureskies ? to make me an HPF/LPF DI with a gain and mute. since i couldn't convince francis to make me an fdeck DI, i asked josh, who hangs more on the BG side to make me one.

i'll post a pic when i get home from work. but i got the idea from sevenyearsdown after i saw his set up.
 
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#12
neddyrow said:
i learned what ric said the hard way - the Fdeck only provides a little gain. i'd try a different preamp. anything you have laying around just to compare with. then maybe add a flex or radial or something you like. keep the hpf in the chain though. it's what will make your bass sound more like an upright through an amp.

what i did:

i had josh broughton - @azureskies ? to make me an HPF/LPF DI with a gain and mute. since i couldn't convince francis to make me an fdeck DI, i asked josh, who hangs more on the BG side to make me one.

i'll post a pic when i get home from work. but i got the idea from sevenyearsdown after i saw his set up.
Click to expand...

That should be a nice box, can't wait to see it. Doesn't he already make a box, similar to the one you're having built? I seem to remember seeing a thread about it, here on Talkbass.

Ric
 
#13
ric,

yes - i saw a pic of sevenyearsdown's setup - he had an HPF/LPF pedal from josh and had it running into a countryman DI. and i thought, "i bet josh could do both in one box" so i asked him and he did it!

it's perfect and takes care of the situations where the fdeck doesn't have enough gain coming from my piezo going into the board.
 
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#14
Here's the unit. I call it "Fern" - Inside joke. Nice of josh to let you name it.

Anyway, I just got it and used it at a nice venue since the monitor system was top notch and I wanted to try this thing out. During sound check I forgot to engage the filters. When I realized it and turned them on, my Tone went from BG to DB like that! Love it already!

It has a 10 Mohm DI
HPF and LPF
Gain
9V outlet AND 9V BATTERY!!
Mute and L+HPF buttons
Ground/lift switch

I highly recommend this unit or something modified for your needs.
 

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#15
My own personal experience is that the issue is best resolved at the beginning of the sound chain i.e. the player. I know when I only had a couple of years in on the instrument I was looking for solutions in new amps, new preamps, new strings, new bass, new equalizer, new speakers. With double bass, it really is GIGO; changing gear only allows you get a louder version of the sound you get out of the instrument and if that sound is weak, ill defined and doesn't project, well you do the math.
 
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#17
One of my students has the BG250 1x8, and even for electric bass, it's not very loud. That being said, his has a speakon output that allows him to add an additional cabinet (without defeating the internal speakers) and doing that seems to really open the amp up. He plugs it into an Eden EX112, and the results are good and much louder
 
#18
I have a hunch it might be the combo itself. Especially with drums. Although, everything that has been mentioned in the previous posts are possibilities. The problem with this situation is that everything is important. From your hands to the speakers. It's all interactive.
 
#19
Ed Fuqua said:
My own personal experience is that the issue is best resolved at the beginning of the sound chain i.e. the player. .......With double bass, it really is GIGO; changing gear only allows you get a louder version of the sound you get out of the instrument and if that sound is weak, ill defined and doesn't project, well you do the math.
Click to expand...

I can surely agree with this, fortunately for me, I studied Double Bass in High School and 5 years in college well before pickups had crawled out of the primordial ooze!With those early pickups, from Dearmond, Polytone, and Barcus Berry, you were better of playing without amplification. That said, there have been some quantum leaps recenty in small contact microphones, preamps, and cabinets, that make amping a bass a delight.

Ric
 
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#20
bigshiny said:
I have a hunch it might be the combo itself. Especially with drums. Although, everything that has been mentioned in the previous posts are possibilities. The problem with this situation is that everything is important. From your hands to the speakers. It's all interactive.
Click to expand...
Agreed. If the drummer is even slightly heavy handed you'll nee more juice. Try elevating the amp
 
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