Double Bass Deciding to leave an orchestra

[ScatCat]

I'm not sure where to put this, so I guess the Miscellaneous thread is as good a place as any.

I need some advice. I've been playing with a community/college orchestra for 11 years. At first it was a lot of community members and some college and high school students plus music teachers. Lately it's become mostly music professionals (teachers) and their students, and very few community members. I think I'm actually one of the only players that isn't a student or a music teacher in the group. The attitude has also been changing, mostly toward me and whatever other bass player there is at the time (haven't noticed an attitude toward anyone else). If I can't make a rehearsal for some reason (weather, car trouble, vacation, etc.) I get the stink eye from the conductor the next rehearsal I'm at. For a while a couple years ago she wouldn't look at me at all, and I was principal bassist. (For reference, I drive about an hour to these rehearsals, every week for 8 months during the school year. We get a lot of cold and snow during the winter). This year, because of inflation and economic problems, I told the director I wouldn't be able to be at every rehearsal and I would miss the first 3 (vacation). The first rehearsal I was at, I tried to talk to her about it and she just got kind of snotty. She said I wouldn't be principal bass because I wasn't there all the time (understandable, but I'm the only bass at the moment), and that I would do whatever I was going to do. I tried to explain but she didn't seem to care. The last couple of rehearsals both she and the conductor have pretty much ignored me except for key entrances. Not really getting the welcome feeling anymore. There is another bass now, but she can't play until the next concert (and they didn't like that she had family obligations for this one either).

So to get to the advice part: like I said, I've been with them for 11 years, mostly solo bass with a few partners here and there. My latest partner has invited me to join him at another community orchestra in another town. They seem a lot more welcoming and grateful whenever he can get there, about every other week. So do I stay with the current orchestra and put up with the attitudes, or do I move on? I'm not excited about going to rehearsal because of the attitude, but I still like to play and don't want to quit altogether. A few of the members are happy to see me, just not the conductor and director. What do I do? I've been going over this for a long time trying to decide, but I need some other musicians' opinions.

 

[Lee Moses]

I think it's fair to expect members to be at the vast majority of rehearsals. Missing 3 right off the bat is kind of a big deal, and indicating you're going to miss several more combines to put the director and conductor in a tough spot. If everyone attended rehearsal the same way you do, the orchestra might not be able to pull off performances at all. I'm not excusing anybody treating you ugly for it...you are (I assume) an unpaid volunteer, and your hindrances from attending may be truly beyond your control. But I'd be a little frustrated about the lack of attendance as well.

As far as going to another orchestra, that depends. What's the caliber of the new orchestra? It may be that they just have low expectations, so they are happy with whatever they can get...but if that's the case, the performance level is almost certain to be lower. Would you be happier with an orchestra that has a lower bar? If so, then that may be a better match for you.

 

[Scott Lynch]

Community groups can definitely have different vibes depending upon the expectations of the players, conductor, and/or the organization in general. Some can be really laid back, but has @Lee Moses said, the quality of musicianship in these groups is often lower; some can have very high performance expectations, be really demanding and even require one to pass an audition (just to get to play for free); and there are lots of groups that fall somewhere in between those two extremes. I think it's important to find one that aligns with your own expectations and interests, and it can be a bit of a trial-and-error process to find the right one.

It sounds like the orchestra you're in has changed, and not in the direction you would like. It's unfortunate when that happens, especially when you feel a degree of investment in the group. Although from your description of what is happening I find it a bit distasteful as to how the leaders of your orchestra are treating you, at the same time I do see the importance in setting expectations that lead to the types of outcomes, performance-wise etc. that the group is seeking to accomplish and holding members accountable for meeting those expectations.

I can understand why it would be hard to leave even with the grief you are getting from some of the people in your group. Though it may be tough, I would absolutely recommend going to a rehearsal at your partner's other orchestra and seeing if you like it better.

 

[Brilee]

"So do I stay with the current orchestra and put up with the attitudes, or do I move on?"

You move on. I have a friend who covers roles at the Met and he says "I sing for free, they pay me to endure the ********." When you're not paid, you call the shots of where and when you play.

I came back to bass a year ago after 20 years off, so I joined a local community orchestra for fun. It is amazing how spotty the attendance of all the other bassists is. They need us, and we have lives to live, so everyone needs to be flexible.

 

[AGCurry]

If I know I'm going to miss a few rehearsals, I take myself out of the group for the next concert and come back when I'm able to make most all rehearsals. I'm too afraid of embarrassing myself and the group due to lack of rehearsal.

 

[Sam Reese]

@ScatCat life's too short not to have fun. The camaraderie with your latest partner sounds like the route I'd be going. Fellowship is always better than stink eye!

 

[LouisF]

Move on. It's supposed to be fun. You are not getting paid and I assume, if the other bassist who made the invitation is any good, the other ensemble will be at least decent. Go.

 

[Wasnex]

I can see both sides to some extent.

Years ago I played in a community orchestra. They played standard classical repertoire, and I was the only bassist. I found it very challenging to endure rehearsals because it was very amateurish overall. The conductor spent most of the time working with higher strings and wind players, so I mostly sat and waited. A lot of people in sections would chat quietly...or knit.

Eventually I could not endure it any longer and let the conductor know the next concert would be my last. They offered to give me a gratuity ($100 or so). Initially I said no and explained the reason I could not continue was because the rehearsals were intolerable. I wound up doing a few more concerts, but I was only expected to drop in for dress rehearsal(s).

Eventually they started hiring a second bassist who was a student at a local university. He also only did dress rehearsals and the concerts. I think I did two concerts with him and then put in my notice again.

Since the situation is changing and the expectations they are placing on you are going up, I suggest that you either do what it takes to meet expectations or put in notice. If they balk when you give notice, then you probably have room to negotiate. If they don't balk, then it's time to walk and find a gig that is better suited to your situation.

It really sounds like this orchestra is trying to raise the bar. I think that is probably a good thing from the macro view, but unfortunately you are getting squeezed a bit, which is unfortunate.

Good luck!

 

[james condino]

If this was a Friday night bar band, you'd already know the answer....

 

[ScatCat]

Thanks for all the responses. I can see where you're all coming from, especially being held to a high standard to make rehearsals and for repertoire. I have no problem with the high standard, I like to challenge myself. Every year that I've played with them until this one I've only missed a few rehearsals throughout the year. This is the first season I decided to cut back for financial purposes. Since I've been with them so long, I would think they would have a little more understanding especially with how things are in the world right now, but in talking to a couple of my former partners they've gotten the same treatment when they had to back off for whatever reason. We are all volunteers in this orchestra, and some travel farther than I do. Others have had to miss for whatever reason but don't get treated the same way, unless it's for a sports event that a high school student is required to be at, then they get treated just as bad. Winds seem to get special treatment since the conductor is also the band director for the college.

Sorry for the rant. I just know there's others on here that have run into situations similar to mine. I want to play with a high quality orchestra, but I also want to it to be fun and be excited to be there. I'm just not excited about this one anymore. Some of the upcoming music sounds interesting, but I've played most of it before so it's really not enough to make me want to stay.

 

[Mark_T]

I think the OP is probably right to decide to move on if they can't accommodate him or aren't welcoming his contributions. However, one thing I will say is that it's pretty hard to rehearse an orchestra if an entire section is empty for 3 or 4 rehearsals per concert cycle. I get why they're frustrated too.

What I don't get is why they aren't working to make it worth your while to be there more, or making you feel more welcome while you're there. It doesn't seem all that surprising that an orchestra that shuns or stink-eyes its members is going to have trouble retaining talent.

For many community groups, filling a bass section is tough. My community orchestra has times of boom and bust - we've had big sections of good players, and we've struggled to have two or three players behind me. Interestingly, I recently joined the community orchestra in the neighboring community and their section is a bit larger and seems quite cohesive. It's amazing what 20 or 30 miles down the pike does to the availability of good players.

 

[Bruce Calin]

+1 for moving on. There is no place for any personal disapproval from a conductor to an individual player in an amateur group, no matter what. Part of the conductor's job in that situation is achieving your musical goals in a positive and friendly manner. People are going to have conflicts and various foreseen and unforeseen issues and a conductor of an unpaid and volunteer group has to deal with that. General critiques of the whole group and also pep talks are fine, but to go after any one person on a personal level is what makes people quit. The conductor of a community orchestra I play in is very good at getting the best possible musical and personnel results with a minimum of negativity. It's not a skill that everyone has. One of the previous conductors of this group would go after individuals, and wondered why the group kept getting smaller and smaller. General complaints about missing rehearsals or any other issues are fine if directed to the group as a whole.

 

[LouisF]

I think a lot of it has to do with conductors' (and sometimes board members') egos and mind-sets: sometimes a conductor decides (or is brought in) to "turn" the community into a "more professional" orchestra and that usually is a recipe for at least short term disaster (people leaving, on stage and off). A conductor who is "happy" conducting a "community" orchestra is one who has standards, but realizes that people are there, by choice, for the JOY of making music together.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I think a lot of it has to do with conductors' (and sometimes board members') egos and mind-sets: sometimes a conductor decides (or is brought in) to "turn" the community into a "more professional" orchestra and that usually a recipe for at least short term disaster (people leaving, on stage and off). A conductor who is "happy" conducting a "community" orchestra is one who has standards, but realizes that people are there, by choice, for the JOY of making music together.

This is exactly right.

 

[ScatCat]

Thanks for your support everyone. I can't figure out why I seem to be the outsider of the group, other than not being a music teacher or professional player. This attitude towards me has been going on for a while. Pre-Covid, the director for the kids/beginners group (she also plays in the orchestra) begged me to play the bass part with them 1 rehearsal before the concert. I agreed, knowing it would be easy stuff that wouldn't take much. I told her I would be at the last rehearsal and what time so we could go thru it and I could get tempo, rhythm, cues, etc. Just as I got there and was going to get the bass, she ended rehearsal saying they had "peeked". She couldn't understand why I was pissed about not getting to rehearse when she knew I was coming. The main orchestra director and another professional musician were right there as I was carefully trying to explain why I was upset, and they didn't do a thing. They just stood there and listened. I told myself I would never play with that group again, no matter how much she begged.

I think a lot of my problem is the snobbery that has developed in the last few years as the conductor got her doctorate. I understand raising the bar, but you still have to consider the skill level and lives of your VOLUNTEER musicians. I also think most of it is just burnout. I've been playing DB almost non-stop with orchestras since I switched from violin in middle school. My only break was my two years in college, when I got to play EB with the stage band. I just need a break and maybe time to play some of my other instruments. Maybe after a year off I'll be ready to pick up DB with a different group. I don't know that I'll go back to this one, but I won't say never.

 

[Bruce Calin]

This may be somewhat off topic but I recall a leader I worked for saying he frequently got requests to have his group play for free for a "good cause" and he always declined. His reasoning was that if you played for free you were not valued or respected in the same way as you would be as a paid professional, not to mention others would expect the same free performance for their "cause". It took me a while to understand this but it makes more sense to me now. Some conductors may feel that you are not deserving of respect as an amateur but a smart one will respect and appreciate your volunteer contributions. Those who don't-their loss.

 

[Wasnex]

Pre-Covid, the director for the kids/beginners group (she also plays in the orchestra) begged me to play the bass part with them 1 rehearsal before the concert. I agreed, knowing it would be easy stuff that wouldn't take much. I told her I would be at the last rehearsal and what time so we could go thru it and I could get tempo, rhythm, cues, etc. Just as I got there and was going to get the bass, she ended rehearsal saying they had "peeked". She couldn't understand why I was pissed about not getting to rehearse when she knew I was coming.

I could be misreading, but IMHO you seem to be the one in the wrong in this particular interaction. It seems you showed up in the middle of a rehearsal and then got upset because it ended early; before you could play. Essentially you seem to have expected a bunch a bunch of volunteers (or worse, children) to continue after they had put in the work.

I can understand your disappointment, but IMHO if you are not going to (or can't) show up on time, you have no basis to complain or get upset when the rehearsal ends early.

Ultimately the decision to end should be based on the group's energy level and readiness to continue, rather than the needs of one person. If the group hits a wall where they start getting frustrated and making more and more mistakes, it's often a better choice to quit than to continue pounding. Pounding too much is a great way to destroy motivation and chase volunteers out of the program. Much better to end rehearsal on a high point. I will note that this advice is often disregarded with professionals, especially if the musicians are hired for a single service, rather than a full-time group.

Also it's generally not a good move to make a public scene and call someone out. If you have a problem that is going to get the least bit heated, it should be handled in private. If you have had multiple encounters like this, it's no wonder that you are being ostracized.

If this was for a children's program with fairly simple music, it should not have been a big deal for you to review the music with the director and play it down without any rehearsals. I.E. it's a bit confusing why you made a big deal out of it and rage quit.

Perhaps a sabbatical is a good idea.

 

[ScatCat]

I could be misreading, but IMHO you seem to be the one in the wrong in this particular interaction. It seems you showed up in the middle of a rehearsal and then got upset because it ended early; before you could play. Essentially you seem to have expected a bunch a bunch of volunteers (or worse, children) to continue after they had put in the work.

I can understand your disappointment, but IMHO if you are not going to (or can't) show up on time, you have no basis to complain or get upset when the rehearsal ends early.

Ultimately the decision to end should be based on the group's energy level and readiness to continue, rather than the needs of one person. If the group hits a wall where they start getting frustrated and making more and more mistakes, it's often a better choice to quit than to continue pounding. Pounding too much is a great way to destroy motivation and chase volunteers out of the program. Much better to end rehearsal on a high point. I will note that this advice is often disregarded with professionals, especially if the musicians are hired for a single service, rather than a full-time group.

Also it's generally not a good move to make a public scene and call someone out. If you have a problem that is going to get the least bit heated, it should be handled in private. If you have had multiple encounters like this, it's no wonder that you are being ostracized.

If this was for a children's program with fairly simple music, it should not have been a big deal for you to review the music with the director and play it down without any rehearsals. I.E. it's a bit confusing why you made a big deal out of it and rage quit.

Perhaps a sabbatical is a good idea.

Wasnex, to clarify on this: we had talked about me coming towards the end of their rehearsal when she asked me to play, just to run thru it once with me. Technically I did show up at the agreed time, she just decided to end rehearsal early. Also, I did wait until the kids were gone to confront her. We were between rehearsals, the other two just happened to still be in the room. Maybe I was a bit in the wrong, but this has not happened to me before and I had played with this group (doing pretty much the same thing but actually getting to play) one other time. Maybe I took it the wrong way, but I didn't feel this was the way to treat a player that you begged to play.

 

[Wasnex]

Wasnex, to clarify on this: we had talked about me coming towards the end of their rehearsal when she asked me to play, just to run thru it once with me. Technically I did show up at the agreed time, she just decided to end rehearsal early. Also, I did wait until the kids were gone to confront her. We were between rehearsals, the other two just happened to still be in the room. Maybe I was a bit in the wrong, but this has not happened to me before and I had played with this group (doing pretty much the same thing but actually getting to play) one other time. Maybe I took it the wrong way, but I didn't feel this was the way to treat a player that you begged to play.

One of the biggest lessons I have learned is to pick my battles. Two parameters come to mind: #1 if it matters (this relates to how important something is), #2 if you care. Best to argue when both are true, otherwise let it go. Even better, you need to assess how the other perceives the situation as well. If they feel even stronger than you on both categories, it can be better to let them have it rather than damaging an important relationship.

Obviously, you cared enough to argue, but the reality is it was probably not important enough engage. Since it was a children's orchestra, it's likely you could have done the service without any rehearsal. So there was really little to gain with the confrontation and you may have burned a valuable bridge or two in the process.

I would feel different if this person has burned you multiple times. If this sort of treatment is chronic, it may be sign she does not hold you in respect. It could also be she just hasn't thought about it from your perspective.

Trust me when I say, I have not always heeded my own advice, and I have sometimes paid a price for it.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

If you are not having fun, for whatever the reason, move on.
I apply this principle to pro and amateur playing.

Stink eye, silent treatment, unwelcome vibes directed at you?
Easy to solve.