Double Bass Does an Experienced Musician Need Bluegrass-Specific Upright Lessons?

[sixpants]

I thought of this after I paid for the Missy Raines lessons on artistworks.com. I consider myself a complete amateur at upright, yet it wasn't until the advanced Missy Raines lessons that I found new information.

It got me thinking... I wonder if a Bluegrass upright player should really focus on technique/intonation, timing, and musicianship because, at its core, bluegrass bass theory is pretty straight forward (of course there's exceptions, but you know what I mean - root and 5th covers you 95.62% of the time).

Here's the caveats (not here to hurt or offend, just working out an idea): I love bluegrass, I love bass... but out of all the styles and genres I play it challenges me the least - probably because I don't play leads and solos!. And that's fine because I like the vocal melodies and harmonies - that's what draws me in.

So I'm thinking my practice/study time of the instrument would be best spent in the traditional theory/practice books since I understand what's going on from a theory perspective.

Thanks for your time,
B

- - -

BTW: Artistworks claims to have guarantees but they're vague. Turns out that, if within 2 hours you e-mail saying, "These lessons are too elementary," they're gonna' say, "Sorry! Your loss. Wanna' learn something else?"

I would only suggest them to a beginner on their first instrument (upright is my 6th). I would also suggest only buying 1 month to begin with.

 

[jthisdell]

As a longtime player who has been doing Bluegrass the last few years, I would say that ALL bass players should focus on technique, intonation and music theory. This goes for everything from Metal to Pop to Rock to Jazz to Classical. There is no Bluegrass music theory, just Western music theory (as opposed to Eastern with tuning and different scales). Concentrating on that will take you a long way towards playing most styles. then it is just a matter of knowing the changes and how the melody is composed. I for one do not buy the idea that Bluegrass needs to be limited to R + 5. Just the humble opinion of a not very traditional Bluegrass player.

 

[BobKay]

I agree with your assessment. I've played bluegrass bass for 30+ years, and am confident enough to play behind anybody anywhere. While I still enjoy immensely playing every week, my focus is different than when I play other styles. Could be just experience, of course. When playing bluegrass, I focus on intonation and musicality - how can I make the bass lines more musical than root/5 without getting in the way. When playing other styles that I am less familiar with, I concentrate on intonation and what I think is harmony - trying to find the right notes to add color and style, also without getting in the way. I say "harmony" without a complete understanding of what that means technically since I have no formal training. Right now, I find the other styles more fun.

 

[Steve Killingsworth]

...how can I make the bass lines more musical than root/5 without getting in the way.

Well said. We've all heard bass players who try to walk the whole tune, or slap like they're having a seizure, and just completely destroy the tune.

I don't see it as theory. I see it as making music which is very different from just playing a tune. The bass in bluegrass is like seasoning in food--leave it out and it's too bland, get just the right amount and nobody really notices it, add a little extra and it gives a pleasant kick, get too much and the whole dish is ruined.

What does the tune call for? Play "Reuben" and nothing can beat a straight root-5; play "Bluegrass Breakdown" and it sounds great with some transitions between the chords; somebody sings "The Old Old House" and a busy bass line takes away from the story of the song. Again, what does the tune call for?

What does the group you are playing with need? Are they a bunch of old traditionalists who like things smooth and . . . traditional? Or are they a bunch of hot pickers who like the frills?

I'm not saying that theory isn't important or useful. Just don't get so caught up in the rules that you miss the game. It's all about the music.

 

[sixpants]

I think we get bogged down in semantics sometimes. My use of "theory" was just shorthand for, "Conventional intervals applied to chords within the context of traditional American bluegrass music." Or, for short, theory.

I switched schools to John Patitucci's Jazz Bass. There's a lot more explicit instruction, guides, sheet music, tracks that will allow me to launch into very intricate, post-modern, atonal bass solos during "Will the Circle Be Unbroken."

It's about time bluegrass got the protracted, not very fun to listen to, bass solo. HERE I COME!!!

 

[BobKay]

I think we get bogged down in semantics sometimes. My use of "theory" was just shorthand for, "Conventional intervals applied to chords within the context of traditional American bluegrass music." Or, for short, theory.

I switched schools to John Patitucci's Jazz Bass. There's a lot more explicit instruction, guides, sheet music, tracks that will allow me to launch into very intricate, post-modern, atonal bass solos during "Will the Circle Be Unbroken."

It's about time bluegrass got the protracted, not very fun to listen to, bass solo. HERE I COME!!!

Great! That tune needs something to make it more interesting.

 

[james condino]

Bummer that you didn't like the Missy video series; don't dismiss all of the Artistworks series.You also need to put it in perspective: look at the player in that series- confident, but not Edgar Meyer by any means, and not fair to compare what she does with Patitucci is trying to do. If you delve deep into Mike Marshall's mandolin section, that is one of the greatest tutorials that I have ever seen. The video replies to the students submissions are amazing in depth and brilliance, and the Brian Sutton guitar series are rock solid.

 

[Steve Swan]

Probably the toughest thing to learn about playing bluegrass bass is to play harmonically very simple ideas while playing with a feel that is "in the pocket" rhythmically, making a consistently large pulse, and getting a big, meaty tone on every note. It takes a lot of discipline and concentration to play this way, but it can be very rewarding for the player and the groups that are counting on him to fulfill this strong functional role. It's not for everyone.

 

[martinc]

I thought of this after I paid for the Missy Raines lessons on artistworks.com. I consider myself a complete amateur at upright, yet it wasn't until the advanced Missy Raines lessons that I found new information.

It got me thinking... I wonder if a Bluegrass upright player should really focus on technique/intonation, timing, and musicianship because, at its core, bluegrass bass theory is pretty straight forward (of course there's exceptions, but you know what I mean - root and 5th covers you 95.62% of the time).

Here's the caveats (not here to hurt or offend, just working out an idea): I love bluegrass, I love bass... but out of all the styles and genres I play it challenges me the least - probably because I don't play leads and solos!. And that's fine because I like the vocal melodies and harmonies - that's what draws me in.

So I'm thinking my practice/study time of the instrument would be best spent in the traditional theory/practice books since I understand what's going on from a theory perspective.

Thanks for your time,
B

- - -

BTW: Artistworks claims to have guarantees but they're vague. Turns out that, if within 2 hours you e-mail saying, "These lessons are too elementary," they're gonna' say, "Sorry! Your loss. Wanna' learn something else?"

I would only suggest them to a beginner on their first instrument (upright is my 6th). I would also suggest only buying 1 month to begin with.

sixpants: Looks to me like you are getting way ahead of yourself.

I think the first thing you should do is get some callouses on your ears and eyes. Listen/watch long and hard to a variety of bluegrass bands and their material. Place yourself in the bass players position and figure out what you would want to do to the tune/song.
Then start practicing a couple of major scales...one in A that starts on the open A...and then the C major scale that starts on the C note on the A string.
Learn intonation! Start with root/5 on some simple songs. Then find ways to connect the chord changes by listening to other players. Stay with the scales until you nail the intonation and get a good feel for the instrument at the same time.
If you can then sit in with a group and keep good time without rushing and playing too many notes, you will be off to a good start. Remember you are there to support the band. "Feel" matters. You have to love the music!

A huge variety of music from different styles is now being brought under the bluegrass tent. You will have a big challenge to stay on top of it and probably have to learn some new time feels to keep up. But even if you don't get past the "cabin" songs you still need to have good time and intonation.
If at that time you still think all this is too elementary, then I would suggest you move on and find another genre of music. Your time will not be wasted. Learning to play bluegrass can also be good training for other music styles where you will have a lot more freedom to play what you want.......if you keep up your bass studies for another 5-10 years.

 

[Jay Corwin]

Rufus Reid says something to this effect - don't practice things that you already know. The idea being that you aren't going to progress by playing the same things over and over. I subscribe to this idea myself, as simple as it sounds.

I play a ton of bluegrass'ish/old time music, and enjoy it very much. However I rarely practice any of it, because of some of the reasons you stated. I already know how to play R-5 lines in 1-4-5 (especially in BG where the key is usually G, G, and sometimes G). When the band hasn't played in a while, I'll dig out the set list and play through it once or twice the week before a gig. This is usually to get licks and changes down on stuff that falls outside of the bluegrass style tunes though.

I try to spend the majority of my practice time doing skills and drills, and learning new songs for various projects. I'm more of weekend warrior, so I feel the need to be really focused and efficient with my practice time. It's amazing how those boring skills routines will start to creep in and improve your playing no matter what style.

As long as you know the material well enough that you need for a gig, I would encourage you to find another outlet for study as you've suggested.

 

[sixpants]

Great thoughts. Thanks everyone.

I'd never consider myself a jazz-type, yet when practicing percussion/drum set and now bass, I find jazz is a lot of fun. Can't rely on the ear entirely because of the wacky stuff that happens.

Kind of like blues... fun to play, not to listen to. I imagine some people feel that way about Bluegrass!

 

[Holdsg]

I'll throw in some of my experience, being a Bluegrass bass learner for about 2 1/2 years now.
Do you need bluegrass-only lessons. No. will they help your learning curve...yes.
I'm first and foremost a rock player, but started playing BG on electric, and very soon after BG on upright, once you get there, its a whole new world, at least it was for me.
I joined a band and started attending jams, and started learning the catalog of songs....jams will do that for you in a hurry, faking your way thru a song everyone else knows.
I think I'm getting used to that now, but its still a bit unnerving.
I was in Missy's school for a few months, left, and came back with a discounted price on Christmas Eve. Maybe you've seen me on there.
I'm not sure I'm getting value, but I do notice they just posted a bunch of new advanced videos with the bass player from Punch Brothers, Paul Kowert, focusing on both bow and pizz technique. pretty cool stuff, I've watched a few already.
She's got me focused on keeping time, maybe that part's easier for you being a drummer.
I've also been off and on looking at Geoff Chalmers and Scott Devine online lessons for a year or so now.
Trying to get something from everyone I look at, listen to.
I still think playing with other people is by far the fastest way to accelerate your learning bluegrass.

 

[Dan Eubanks]

As with any specific style, there's a lot going on under the surface in Bluegrass. You can certainly do more than root 5 and make it fit in the groove, you just have to pick your spots, ah, but knowing those spots...and what about register choice? Where should you play in different keys behind different soloists and vocalists? How about note length, the when what and where of that? Want to get better at solo breaks if people ask you to do that? How about repertoire, time feels, nuances...you get the point, you can benefit from a good bluegrass specific bass teacher if you want to get inside the music, but you have to love it to go that far, it can't be approached as a lesser form. Of course all the above with the caveat "IMHO";-) it should all be fun no matter what!

 

[martinc]

As with any specific style, there's a lot going on under the surface in Bluegrass. You can certainly do more than root 5 and make it fit in the groove, you just have to pick your spots, ah, but knowing those spots...and what about register choice? Where should you play in different keys behind different soloists and vocalists? How about note length, the when what and where of that? Want to get better at solo breaks if people ask you to do that? How about repertoire, time feels, nuances...you get the point, you can benefit from a good bluegrass specific bass teacher if you want to get inside the music, but you have to love it to go that far, it can't be approached as a lesser form. Of course all the above with the caveat "IMHO";-) it should all be fun no matter what!

Dan: Re: "you just have to pick your spots..."

Exactly. For me, this goes to the heart of the bass players role in the band.
In addition to keeping good time and having a firm touch, I'd say the next most important thing for a bluegrass bass player is the ability to let the band "breathe". By that I mean not always trying to fit in a lot of notes, especially between chord changes. Sometimes for example, those cliche walk-ups between chords can sound cheesy and/or get in the way of what the other band members are singing or playing. One way around that is just to use the last approach note before the next chord. It may not dazzle many people but it often fits the music and the band better.
I have spent years listening for tasty connecting runs (thanks Bob Moore!) but what he knew and I did not for a long time..... is that in order for that lick/run up/run down etc to be tasty, it has to be done within the context of what the rest of the band is doing. There is a lot more to all of this but to me, hearing from someone that my playing "fits the band well", is the best compliment of all.

 

[turf3]

I'm not very experienced on bass, although I have 40 years on sax. In bluegrass jam sessions, when I play a lot of notes - mostly approaches to chord changes - no one says anything. When I spend the whole session playing only half notes, that's when people say "sounded great, man". I am gradually starting to think maybe they know something I don't.

 

[JamesAdams]

As with any specific style, there's a lot going on under the surface in Bluegrass. You can certainly do more than root 5 and make it fit in the groove, you just have to pick your spots, ah, but knowing those spots...and what about register choice? Where should you play in different keys behind different soloists and vocalists? How about note length, the when what and where of that? Want to get better at solo breaks if people ask you to do that? How about repertoire, time feels, nuances...you get the point, you can benefit from a good bluegrass specific bass teacher if you want to get inside the music, but you have to love it to go that far, it can't be approached as a lesser form. Of course all the above with the caveat "IMHO";-) it should all be fun no matter what!

This is probably the one thing that has challenged me the most coming into Bluegrass from a Jazz/Classical background is knowing what NOT to play. It's so easy to play too much. I am now trying to focus on simple, tasteful, and in the pocket. It's easy to dismiss Bluegrass as being too simple but you can always tell a when the bass makes it work and when it doesn't. I was listening back through some of our older material the other day and realized that I was over playing so much that it was distracting. Good Bluegrass bass makes you want to groove and smile and doesn't get in the way.

 

[martinc]

Quote: "Play the one and get the heck out of the way." Bob Moore (Nashville A team. 18 thousand recording sessions).