Envelope filters and active electronics

[baTassi]

Hi everybody

I'm having a little situation with my rig and I haven't found any info out there so, I come to you to see if anyone has any advice to offer.
I have a Moog Envelope Filter (MF-101) and I'm really happy with it. It can be hard to tame at the beginning, but it works perfectly with my Fender P-bass (or should I say PJ, although it works really well with any pup configuration).
The thing is that, when I use it with Sadowsky Jazz bass (I think the model is UV70, it's a J with hum cancelling pups and the Sadowsky Pre-amp), I cannot get it to sound right. It's like the strings work on pairs, either 1 & 2 sound good or the lower 3 & 4 do it. I cannot get an even effect on the 4 strings.
I have tried playing with the cutoff on the pedal, but achieved nothing. Ultimately when I get it to sound more or less even, the pedal sucks all the bottom end... so, that is a deal breaker.

I'm open to the idea of getting another EF (I love this one, but if doesn't work like I want on my #1 bass....) but the problem for me there is that, where I live, pedals are expensive and not that easy to find, so I can't afford to buy and try a bunch of things.

Ideas? any advice?

PS: I have the pedal on the end on my chain right now (because I never combine it with any other) but I have tried it being the only one in the chain with the same result. I don't have the pedal ehre with me, but if any of you think it may help I can get a picture of the settings

 

[bholder]

The thing with envelope filters is they need to be splittable - where in the chain you want to sense the envelope is not necessarily the best spot in the chain to place the effect itself. I don't know if any commercially available units offer this, I was at one point planning to build my own (never happened).

 

[SteveCS]

Hi everybody

I'm having a little situation with my rig and I haven't found any info out there so, I come to you to see if anyone has any advice to offer.
I have a Moog Envelope Filter (MF-101) and I'm really happy with it. It can be hard to tame at the beginning, but it works perfectly with my Fender P-bass (or should I say PJ, although it works really well with any pup configuration).
The thing is that, when I use it with Sadowsky Jazz bass (I think the model is UV70, it's a J with hum cancelling pups and the Sadowsky Pre-amp), I cannot get it to sound right. It's like the strings work on pairs, either 1 & 2 sound good or the lower 3 & 4 do it. I cannot get an even effect on the 4 strings.
I have tried playing with the cutoff on the pedal, but achieved nothing. Ultimately when I get it to sound more or less even, the pedal sucks all the bottom end... so, that is a deal breaker.

I'm open to the idea of getting another EF (I love this one, but if doesn't work like I want on my #1 bass....) but the problem for me there is that, where I live, pedals are expensive and not that easy to find, so I can't afford to buy and try a bunch of things.

Ideas? any advice?

PS: I have the pedal on the end on my chain right now (because I never combine it with any other) but I have tried it being the only one in the chain with the same result. I don't have the pedal ehre with me, but if any of you think it may help I can get a picture of the settings

The problem is that the active EQ is, by design, creating uneven levels in your bass output. When you play in the boosted ranges your EF will respond accordingly with more extreme filtering. Try using less radical EQ settings on the preamp...
Another option might be a compressor between bass and EF to tame the peaks sensed by the pedal...

 

[bholder]

The problem is that the active EQ is, by design, creating uneven levels in your bass output. When you play in the boosted ranges your EF will respond accordingly with more extreme filtering. Try using less radical EQ settings on the preamp...
Another option might be a compressor between bass and EF to tame the peaks sensed by the pedal...

Yup, that's the problem introduced by having other stuff in front of the envelope sensor. I would ideally want the sensor at the very front of the chain and the effect itself towards the back (after overdrive and other envelope-compromising effects)

 

[baTassi]

The problem is that the active EQ is, by design, creating uneven levels in your bass output. When you play in the boosted ranges your EF will respond accordingly with more extreme filtering. Try using less radical EQ settings on the preamp...

I was thinking the problem could be related to that (hence the title of the post). I'll try to play with the EQ a little bit more to see what I can achieve, but I have a pretty conservative setting, tone on half and treble and bass more of the same, a little bit on bass because it has a very significant amount.

Thanks

 

[Alien8]

^ good advice here.

The filter will respond best to a bright signal, so adjusting your Pre filter sound to suit is necessary, and true for just about every filter out there.

Where do you have the drive set to? Is the drive indicator flickering from green to orange on the peaks?

Because you mention the string pairs being an issue, a compressor may help, but there is some feeling lost with one. Or I guess it's better said that the input is more predictable and consistent. My guess is that your signal is too bass heavy, and doesn't have enough treble content to make up for the lower bass of the two high strings.

Like I asked before, check your drive settings, you might find one that is better, and you just make up with the amount knob, and frequency. I've had a similar issue with some other pedals being input that output heavy bass.

 

[SteveCS]

I was thinking the problem could be related to that (hence the title of the post). I'll try to play with the EQ a little bit more to see what I can achieve, but I have a pretty conservative setting, tone on half and treble and bass more of the same, a little bit on bass because it has a very significant amount.

Thanks

Yes, but it doesn't take much. If you have +3dB on the bass at say 800Hz and your filter has +3dB per dB centred in a similar range things can pretty quickly get out of control.

 

[Korladis]

Go to passive mode when playing through the filter.

 

[baTassi]

^ good advice here.

The filter will respond best to a bright signal, so adjusting your Pre filter sound to suit is necessary, and true for just about every filter out there.

Where do you have the drive set to? Is the drive indicator flickering from green to orange on the peaks?

Because you mention the string pairs being an issue, a compressor may help, but there is some feeling lost with one. Or I guess it's better said that the input is more predictable and consistent. My guess is that your signal is too bass heavy, and doesn't have enough treble content to make up for the lower bass of the two high strings.

Like I asked before, check your drive settings, you might find one that is better, and you just make up with the amount knob, and frequency. I've had a similar issue with some other pedals being input that output heavy bass.

I haven't tried to change the Drive on the pedal, mostly because the drive affects the signal when the pedal is off (I been thinking of isolating the pedal on a loop of it owns) and I've found a sweet spot for it now, but I'll certainly try that.
I don't think the signal is lacking treble but I'll be fooling around with the EQ to see what I can find

Thanks!

 

[Paulabass]

My MXR filter feedsback uncontrollably with my Rickenbacker 4003 during part of the sweep. Moral- don't use envelope filter with my Ric 4003.

 

[Aloe]

1. if your strings are unbalanced, try balancing them. pickups' height or something like this.
2. if no luck yet, you can run a compressor before your envelope filter (source audio ones have the comp built-in), so the attack will be more consistent.

 

[winegamd]

Have you tried a compressor/limiter before the envelope? This would even out the signal and prevent sudden peaks.

 

[lz4005]

I was thinking the problem could be related to that (hence the title of the post). I'll try to play with the EQ a little bit more to see what I can achieve, but I have a pretty conservative setting, tone on half and treble and bass more of the same, a little bit on bass because it has a very significant amount.

That isn't a conservative setting.
Start with the passive tone control at 100% and the active bass and treble at 0%.
Your preamp is boost only, so you're creating a big EQ curve with both at 50%.
Then you're cutting the highs you just boosted by rolling back the passive tone. That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Lonnybass]

Hi everybody

I'm having a little situation with my rig and I haven't found any info out there so, I come to you to see if anyone has any advice to offer.
I have a Moog Envelope Filter (MF-101) and I'm really happy with it. It can be hard to tame at the beginning, but it works perfectly with my Fender P-bass (or should I say PJ, although it works really well with any pup configuration).
The thing is that, when I use it with Sadowsky Jazz bass (I think the model is UV70, it's a J with hum cancelling pups and the Sadowsky Pre-amp), I cannot get it to sound right. It's like the strings work on pairs, either 1 & 2 sound good or the lower 3 & 4 do it. I cannot get an even effect on the 4 strings.
I have tried playing with the cutoff on the pedal, but achieved nothing. Ultimately when I get it to sound more or less even, the pedal sucks all the bottom end... so, that is a deal breaker.

I'm open to the idea of getting another EF (I love this one, but if doesn't work like I want on my #1 bass....) but the problem for me there is that, where I live, pedals are expensive and not that easy to find, so I can't afford to buy and try a bunch of things.

Ideas? any advice?

PS: I have the pedal on the end on my chain right now (because I never combine it with any other) but I have tried it being the only one in the chain with the same result. I don't have the pedal ehre with me, but if any of you think it may help I can get a picture of the settings

Envelope filters need mids in the signal to really open them up and get them to quack.

Your Sadowsky preamp is boosting lows and highs.

Try a little EQ in front of the filter, with a bump at 500 Hz.

 

[baTassi]

That isn't a conservative setting.
Start with the passive tone control at 100% and the active bass and treble at 0%.
Your preamp is boost only, so you're creating a big EQ curve with both at 50%.
Then you're cutting the highs you just boosted by rolling back the passive tone. That doesn't make any sense.

I'll try starting at 0 with the EQ and building from there, what in meant is that I'm keeping them balanced.
Regarding the tone I don't know which frequencies affect exactly comparing with the treble, but they are not the same. Rolling back the tone doesn't have the same effect than rolling back the treble. I like to leave the EQ alone and mess with the tone during songs

 

[winegamd]

Sadowsky are bass and treble boost only, but they have a LOT of inherent mids in the pickups already. Usually you will need to add about 50% to the bass knob just to make the bridge pickup sound like a traditional Fender J. Just try no boost and be easy with the bass knob. There is a lot of power there.

 

[baTassi]

Sadowsky are bass and treble boost only, but they have a LOT of inherent mids in the pickups already. Usually you will need to add about 50% to the bass knob just to make the bridge pickup sound like a traditional Fender J. Just try no boost and be easy with the bass knob. There is a lot of power there.

Yes, I guess I just need to find the sweet spot for the filter to get what it wants. I guess part of the problem is that on rehearsals I tend to push the treble more than usual because we all use earplugs. The studio is tinny and the drums will cut or heads of otherwise

 

[armybass]

I am a newbie so take my input with the correct amount of weight. I only have active basses and have gone with many of the suggestions here to combat the issues you are dealing with. I have my compressor and an EQ pedal before my MF 101. I have the EQ Pedal set to control the signal going into the MF101 only. By doing this I do not have to make any EQ changes to my basses when I engage the MF101.... great thread and lots of great suggestions.

 

[lz4005]

I'll try starting at 0 with the EQ and building from there, what in meant is that I'm keeping them balanced.
Regarding the tone I don't know which frequencies affect exactly comparing with the treble, but they are not the same. Rolling back the tone doesn't have the same effect than rolling back the treble. I like to leave the EQ alone and mess with the tone during songs

The treble EQ is boost only. The passive tone control is cut only. You are boosting and cutting your highs at the same time.

 

[Bassheart365]

There is no reason an envelope filter cannot work as intended with an active bass. My 3Leaf Wonderlove sounds awesome with my basses, all of which are active. That is what the sensitivity adjustment is for. Also, I have it at the front of my board right after my octaver. Also, pickup selection and EQ is important. As @Lonnybass pointed out above, EFs like mids.