Double Bass Fingering 1-1-4 versus 1-2-4

[Ben Crowell]

I'm playing a B major scale in first/half position. Starting on the tonic on the A string, I think what I've been practicing for B-C#-D#-E-F# is 1-4-1-2-4. (This is what's in the scale book I'm using, and if my teacher has seen me play it that way, I don't think he's objected.) Does it actually matter if I do this as 1-4-1-1-4 instead? Could you just do either depending on other factors like what rhythm it was and how you were articulating it?
My main thing I'm getting as a general rule of thumb is to avoid 4-4 shifts.
I feel like a possible advantage of 1-1-4 is that the brain is better connected to the first finger, so the shift will likely be accurate, and also I tend to think of my positions in terms of where the 1 is. But I'm a total newbie...

 

[lurk]

I personally try to avoid playing 2 notes in a row with the same finger. A fingering you may want to try is 2-4 (A string) 1-2-4 (D string) 1-2-4 (G string) where you kinda rock your hand pivoting lightly on the thumb as opposed to holding the fingers poised above the notes like a typist. I'm glad you've got a teacher. He'll know what I'm talking about.

 

[BassFalcon]

Do both. There’s something like 144 possible ways to finger a major scale. The more you know and are comfortable with the easier everything else gets. Eventually you run into something where one of the absurd fingerings will make total sense for whatever reason. Also regarding your theory that your brain is better connected to 1, it could be equally well connected to 4 if you let it.

 

[fu22ba55]

A good rule of thumb (which is frequently broken) is this:

1 - 1 - 4 when shifting up the string (sharper), use the 1 to shift
4 - 4 - 1 when shifting down the string (flatter), use the 4 to shift.
And use 2 to shift whenever you want (1-2-2-4 going up, or 4-2-2-1) going down.

1 always shifts up the fingerboard (sharper)
4 always shifts down the fingerboard (flatter)
2 is ambidirectional

HOWEVER, I just posted a thread the other day about how Simandl throws this convention out the window at times in order to better set you up for whatever passage comes next.

 

[Ben Crowell]

Thanks, all, that's super helpful!

 

[Lee Moses]

A 1-1 shift ascending is perfectly fine. Usually, 1-1-4 would be the first fingering a beginning method would suggest for the D#-E-F# on the D string and is easiest to intonate. 1-2-4 is good when you get into pivoting.

 

[Steve Freides]

On the G string, I do A-B-C as 1-2-4 but A-Bb-C as 1-1-4.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

when you get into pivoting

Perhaps "if" instead of "when."

-S-

 

[neilG]

Learn all the possible fingerings. As you progress, you'll see, or be taught, which fingerings are best for a particular type of passage. If one fingering is more in tune, you haven't practiced the other one enough.

 

[David Potts]

Context and speed required are worth keeping in mind, however as a rule I generally try the finger-to-finger-finger approach first or alternate fingerings that walk finger-to-finger before shifting on the same finger. Then again rules are meant to be questioned !!

 

[Wasnex]

I'm playing a B major scale in first/half position. Starting on the tonic on the A string, I think what I've been practicing for B-C#-D#-E-F# is 1-4-1-2-4. (This is what's in the scale book I'm using, and if my teacher has seen me play it that way, I don't think he's objected.) Does it actually matter if I do this as 1-4-1-1-4 instead? Could you just do either depending on other factors like what rhythm it was and how you were articulating it?
My main thing I'm getting as a general rule of thumb is to avoid 4-4 shifts.
I feel like a possible advantage of 1-1-4 is that the brain is better connected to the first finger, so the shift will likely be accurate, and also I tend to think of my positions in terms of where the 1 is. But I'm a total newbie...

B-C#-D#-E-F#

Shift Up = >
Shift Down =<

Choices:
1,4<1,2>4
1,4<1>1,4

When possible you generally try to avoid placing a shift both before and after the same note. In the this respect the first choice is better.

However, it also depends on both where you are coming from and where you are going.

If I were going to continue the B Major scale up the neck I would probably play
1,4<1,2>1,4<1,2

G# with 4 on the D string.

Rather than
1,4<1>1,4<1>2,4
(two double shifts surrounding 1)

However if were playing F# major (down a perfect 4th) I might opt for the latter fingering. Depends on how the bass responds to D# on the A string. The bigger the string, the more important it becomes to play in lower positions.

Also the latter fingering is probably what I would have used when I was fairly new to the instrument.

I am not saying any of this is correct or even optimal...It's IMHO so YMMV.

For now, it's good to be inquisitive, but for the most part use whatever fingering your instructor tells you to use. Over a long career you learn as much as you can. Eventually as you develop more and more mastery over the instrument, you start to discard approaches that don't work well for you and modify the approaches you keep to better suit your physiology and logic patterns.

 

[Dogfightgiggle]

My approach:

I put common finger shifts in at the start of a run (1-1 ascending, 4-4 descending).

Ascending half steps are fingered 1-2. Descending half steps are 4-2.

Ascending runs always finish on fourth finger (sub third finger at the octave).

Open strings are utilized when ascending, but the same notes are closed when descending.

 

[Lionel Albert]

I'm playing a B major scale in first/half position. Starting on the tonic on the A string, I think what I've been practicing for B-C#-D#-E-F# is 1-4-1-2-4. (This is what's in the scale book I'm using, and if my teacher has seen me play it that way, I don't think he's objected.) Does it actually matter if I do this as 1-4-1-1-4 instead? Could you just do either depending on other factors like what rhythm it was and how you were articulating it?
My main thing I'm getting as a general rule of thumb is to avoid 4-4 shifts.
I feel like a possible advantage of 1-1-4 is that the brain is better connected to the first finger, so the shift will likely be accurate, and also I tend to think of my positions in terms of where the 1 is. But I'm a total newbie...

This is a picture I took.

 

[Steve Freides]

I like what's in the picture from the book. For me it's all about muscle memory. If it's half-step then whole step, then 1-1-4; if it's whole step then half-step, it's 1-2-4. For the latter, just think of A-B-C on the G string. One of the late Mozart symphonies - can't remember which at the moment - has exactly at the beginning, if memory serves.

-S-

I'm playing a B major scale in first/half position. Starting on the tonic on the A string, I think what I've been practicing for B-C#-D#-E-F# is 1-4-1-2-4. (This is what's in the scale book I'm using, and if my teacher has seen me play it that way, I don't think he's objected.) Does it actually matter if I do this as 1-4-1-1-4 instead? Could you just do either depending on other factors like what rhythm it was and how you were articulating it?
My main thing I'm getting as a general rule of thumb is to avoid 4-4 shifts.
I feel like a possible advantage of 1-1-4 is that the brain is better connected to the first finger, so the shift will likely be accurate, and also I tend to think of my positions in terms of where the 1 is. But I'm a total newbie...

This is a picture I took.
View attachment 5425876

 

[srbbass]

Totally agree with Steve F. Ascending 1-1-4 for Half-Whole and 1-2-4 for W-H and pretty much the converse for the descending scale. 4-4-1 for H-W and 4-2-1 for W-H. But then again, I cut my bass teeth on Simandl

 

[Mark_T]

It's funny, I've been working hard on some quick passage work for the Shostakovich violin concerto no. 1 this weekend and there are a bunch of places where I have choices between 1-1-4 and 1-2-4; and 4-4-1 versus 4-2-1. I generally like 1-2-4 kinds of things, but at this tempo, I sometimes find that I need to try both in context. For some reasons, each one works best sometimes and not others. I'm not certain I have it so clearly systematized where I can even go back and see "1-1-4 is better here because X". It could well be just habits formed over decades of playing.

In any case, I'm standing with people who say, "practice them all" and further saying "use what works best for you to keep things in tempo and in tune".

 

[jj.833]

I've lately been practicing 1-1-4 because the book I have at the note stand very often now takes it as a systematized standard (Cerny). It seems to me it helps as a good mental anchor of half and 1st position for runs upward the fingerboard.
However, in pizz jazz I prefer 1-2-4, because 1-1 on semitones this low tends to be harder to intonate and start clearly. Perhaps because the 'click' of 2 when stopping helps to divide the two semitones more securely and without slide.
Reading this back, I find it hard to understand but can't express it better. Practice both ways, they have uses.

 

[Papageno]

I find preferable to play D# E on the A string:
1 4 > 2 4 ( A string)
< 1 4 > 2 4 (D string).
This way, I never need to shift twice in a row.

Another option is:
1 4 (A string)
< 1 2 > 1 4 ( D string)
< 1 2 (G string)

 

[the_Ryan]

To answer the OP, the best option is to practice both: either option will result in a double/triple shifts or pivots (using 1-1-4, there's a double shift between C#, D#, and E and using 1-2-4 there's a double shift between E, F#, and G#; both fingerings will involve a double shift/pivot between F#, G#, and A# if you're playing the G string notes as 1-2-4).

A good rule of thumb (which is frequently broken) is this:

1 - 1 - 4 when shifting up the string (sharper), use the 1 to shift
4 - 4 - 1 when shifting down the string (flatter), use the 4 to shift.
And use 2 to shift whenever you want (1-2-2-4 going up, or 4-2-2-1) going down.

1 always shifts up the fingerboard (sharper)
4 always shifts down the fingerboard (flatter)
2 is ambidirectional

HOWEVER, I just posted a thread the other day about how Simandl throws this convention out the window at times in order to better set you up for whatever passage comes next.

As a major aside, I am a fierce advocate of ascending 4-4 and descending 1-1: I don't think that using those fingerings distort or destabilize hand position (regardless of if you're using a traditional "fixed" position or a "free" position), and when I listen back to recordings of myself I find that ascending 4-4 or descending 1-1 are often more articulate than using ascending 1-1 or descending 4-4, particularly under slurs. I do agree that there is more resistance on the string when using ascending 4-4 or descending 1-1, but I think there are some reasons why they might be more articulate: usually we use ascending 1-1 and descending 4-4 in fingering patters that span a major third (so the fingering is 1-1-4 ascending and 4-4-1 descending); usually when we shift from a lower-numbered finger to a higher-numbered finger ascending or a higher finger to a lower finger descending, the routine is to shift using the old finger and then once the hand is in place to hammer on or pull off to the new finger; under a slur playing two whole steps as 1-1-4 or 4-4-1 almost leads the middle note to be "swallowed", like it's just part of the shift from the lowest note to the highest note, whereas 1-4-4 or 4-1-1 goes against normal shifting practice and creates a more defined middle pitch.

I don't want to say to always use ascending 4-4 or descending 1-1 instead of ascending 1-1 or descending 4-4 because I use all 4 options regularly, but I am saying that the "forbidden" ascending 4-4 and descending 1-1 fingerings are very valuable tools to have in our toolbelt and should not be as avoided as they are usually taught to be.