Found the weak link..my cab. Please help

Mechayoshi

Mechayoshi

Dec 7, 2015
911
814
4,571
Tennessee
mechas64castles.net
#1
Hello, here’s some background. Please bare with me, it’s quick I promise. I knew I made a mistake a while ago, even before the whole pandemic thing. (Time sure flies). I was desperate for a bass cab to go with my Gallien Krueger rb400 and my local options were not impossible but slim. (This was again before the current apocalypse so I had no excuse to get impatient). Anyway I purchased new (first mistake) an acoustic b410c because I thought, “I’ll never be heard without a half stack!!”

Well, now I know how important the cabinet is to your sound. My cab sounds passible at best clean but falls apart with any sort of “dirt”. It has the total ‘blanket over the amp syndrome’. Distortion, fuzz, overdrive? Doesn’t matter. At first I thought it was my effects units but I attached my guitar head, a Randall Rh100 to the Acoustic for a sanity check. Then I thought, new strings? Nope. Also the Acoustic isn’t that sensitive. It’s needs more volume. I’ve owned it for months for the speakers to break in at least a little. I narrowed it down today. My cab sucks!

This cab has a tweeter but in troubleshooting it doesn’t help much. Furthermore I don’t need such a large 410 config anyway though I wouldn’t be opposed to another if the sound is better. While I’ve focused on the dirt part I just want something that’s an upgrade in all ways. I play mostly rock metal and pop. I have both passive and active basses, four and five strings, rounds and flats. (But no tort, sorry! ;)) What’s a better versatile cabinet new or used for less than 500$??
 
#2
Hey mate, what version is your 400rb and how many ohms is your cab rated? If it's 8 ohms (Google search told me that) then you aren't taking full advantage of your 400rb's power rating. It may only be feeding it 100-150 watts (depending on version). Are you running your master volume on full, and using the input volume for sound level? That will give you the loudest, cleanest sound.

If it is the cab, get a 4 ohm cab to open up your amp; possibly two 8 ohm 210's and run a vertical stack. Or take your head to a local music store and try some out.

Raz
 
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#3
What’s a better versatile cabinet new or used for less than 500$??[/QUOTE]

Greetings - Many years ago between the late 70's to early 80's I build scores of 12" Karlson cabinets, typically loaded with the JBL K120. Yes, a guitar speaker used for bass. It performed admirably. I ran my Karlson with the G-K 400RB I was using at the time. A nice club rig, but the real punch came from the cabinet. Very portable. Sling your bass, hand carry your amp and cab in one trip. I could fit three Karlsons in the back seat of my Camaro. One for me, and two for the P.A. loaded with an ALTEC Lansing CoAx and E-V twetter.

I had bass players come up to me and ask what model 15" speaker was in the cabinet. When I told them it was a 12" they didn't believe me until I removed the grille. The cabinet is barely 15" wide. That is why I built so many of them. Even Walter Woods was sending business my way. A 12" Karlson cabinet will cut through any crowd, with the only draw back being it tends to fall off the more you get off axis. At 90 degrees, forget it.

There is a 12" speaker I would recommend for the Karlson. The Beyma 12E120. It is their version of the JBL E120, but has some of the characteristics of the JBL discontinued model 130A 15" woofer.

Tuned properly, the Karlson cabinet is capable of a good bottom end. Tight and punchy. No boom.

Prior to that rig I owned a 1971 SVT. I built two 4x10 cabinets using the stock SVT speakers. I never used both because the rooms I worked did not require more than one.

Ciao!
 
#4
Razman said:
Hey mate, what version is your 400rb and how many ohms is your cab rated? If it's 8 ohms (Google search told me that) then you aren't taking full advantage of your 400rb's power rating. It may only be feeding it 100-150 watts (depending on version). Are you running your master volume on full, and using the input volume for sound level? That will give you the loudest, cleanest sound.

If it is the cab, get a 4 ohm cab to open up your amp; possibly two 8 ohm 210's and run a vertical stack. Or take your head to a local music store and try some out.

Raz
Click to expand...
It’s the 400rb iii so I believe I’m getting at least 200watts even with a 8ohm cab. My main issue again is the sound not volume. I do frequently play with the amps knobs. Your second suggestion is golden.. if not for the whole pandemic thing Unfortunately. This is why I was asking around for recommendations.
 
#5
Mechayoshi said:
It’s the 400rb iii so I believe I’m getting at least 200watts even with a 8ohm cab. My main issue again is the sound not volume. I do frequently play with the amps knobs. Your second suggestion is golden.. if not for the whole pandemic thing Unfortunately. This is why I was asking around for recommendations.
Click to expand...
No problem; it’s hard to make recommendations based on many assumptions about what you like, even with the details you provided. Heck, trying one in a store isn’t always a guarantee it will sound good in a mix either.

However, look up some of Mike Arnopol’s cabs here (search for ‘MAS’ in titles in the classifieds) as they are highly rated boutique cabs, supposed to be versatile, and can be found for under $500 used. I’ve wanted one for a while, but I usually wind up finding a deal on something local to me and just go with that. I think a MAS 112 might work for you, but that opinion is solely based on what I have read here (granted, 7 years of following that thread).

So in the words of the great Scooby Doo, “rotsa ruck”. :D
 
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#6
Razman said:
Hey mate, what version is your 400rb and how many ohms is your cab rated? If it's 8 ohms (Google search told me that) then you aren't taking full advantage of your 400rb's power rating. It may only be feeding it 100-150 watts (depending on version). Are you running your master volume on full, and using the input volume for sound level? That will give you the loudest, cleanest sound.

If it is the cab, get a 4 ohm cab to open up your amp; possibly two 8 ohm 210's and run a vertical stack. Or take your head to a local music store and try some out.

Raz
Click to expand...
Let me apologize for writing this off at first. Today I went back and changed things up with a clear mind. I experimented with both the controls, effects, and as you'd mentioned the volume. This whole time I thought this was mainly a tone issue, but as you'd suggested it really was tied to volume. My cabinet doesn't open up unless the volume, boost, and master are at noon or close to that. Fair enough! I also got distortion and fuzz effects to work okay too. I even found some cool tones using a Wah pedal, something I'd normally not bother with on bass to cut more. Thanks again!!!! I have some usable tones now!
 
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#7
Mechayoshi said:
Let me apologize for writing this off at first. Today I went back and changed things up with a clear mind. I experimented with both the controls, effects, and as you'd mentioned the volume. This whole time I thought this was mainly a tone issue, but as you'd suggested it really was tied to volume. My cabinet doesn't open up unless the volume, boost, and master are at noon or close to that. Fair enough! I also got distortion and fuzz effects to work okay too. I even found some cool tones using a Wah pedal, something I'd normally not bother with on bass to cut more. Thanks again!!!! I have some usable tones now!
Click to expand...
No worries mate. GK RB series heads - well, the 800rb's I've owned - need that master volume knob dimed for the clearest sound. Add boost for flavor - but to really get that class-H power section to really do what it does best, you need to open it up. Use the initial gain as your master volume. Try it with the boost off, the master volume at 100%, and call me in the morning. :thumbsup:
 
#8
If your concern is getting a good dirty sound, you're looking for a cab with a strong midrange and smooth highs. A cheap tweeter will sound fizzy when you add dirt and a weak midrange will sound... weak.

New I think you may be out of luck at that price range. Loud, great sound, and inexpensive don't often go together. For a little above your price point, maybe the Avatar B2126. The midrange speaker should add to the midrange complexity. If they would upgrade the woofers with the Faitals they have on sale, it would be better yet... but the price is going up.
Used, I would search for a Genz Benz NEOX-212. I have no idea if you could find one under your price cap.
 
#10
Razman said:
No problem; it’s hard to make recommendations based on many assumptions about what you like, even with the details you provided. Heck, trying one in a store isn’t always a guarantee it will sound good in a mix either.

However, look up some of Mike Arnopol’s cabs here (search for ‘MAS’ in titles in the classifieds) as they are highly rated boutique cabs, supposed to be versatile, and can be found for under $500 used. I’ve wanted one for a while, but I usually wind up finding a deal on something local to me and just go with that. I think a MAS 112 might work for you, but that opinion is solely based on what I have read here (granted, 7 years of following that thread).

So in the words of the great Scooby Doo, “rotsa ruck”. :D
Click to expand...

Re. the MAS 112s, Mike made several versions, which varied in voicing, impedance, and efficiency. With a 400 RB, I'd be looking for one of the 4 Ohm versions -- in particular the one he made with a custom Eminence woofer or the 112 LPT ("low power tube" -- don't think he made many of those), which used a Kappalite 3012 HO -- the last won't have the low end of the others, but would get screaming loud with a 400 RB. The version with the custom Eminence woofer would get almost as loud and have more solid lows. (The MAS 112, despite its name, is roughly the size of vertical 2x12 and, properly powered, has the output of a 2x12 with the two of same woofer.)

There was also a 4 Ohm version with a Faital woofer -- haven't played that one but it's supposed to have a bigger, more "bloomy" low end than the others -- great for Blues, R&B, or anything where you want those more open lows and supportive pillow, but maybe not the first choice if you're shooting for more tight, grindy, aggressive.

The 18Sound woofer MAS 112 (the version I have) is great -- and would nail the voicing you're talking about -- but it's 8 Ohms and not quite as efficient as the 4 Ohm Eminence models... you want a good 400+ Watts at 8 Ohms to take full advantage of that cab's capabilities (though you can certainly play it with less -- I've gigged mine with a 150 Watt tube amp), which the 400 RB is not gonna do.

I haven't played an Uber 410, but I'd expect it to be a good two steps up from your current 410.

The NeoX 212 isn't bad and you should be able to pick up a used one in your price range. If you can score one of the Eminence-woofer MAS 112s, I'd take it over the NeoX, but the NeoX is a solid production cab, pretty easy to move around, and reasonably efficient.

It so happens that I picked up a 400 RB not too long ago (never owned one as a youth and wanted to try it, finally). It sounds surprisingly good through (and loud) through a couple of DIY 110s with Delatlite II 2510 drivers (Duke Lejeune's design -- there's a big thread on them -- Deltalite is a sub for the woofer originally recommended in the thread); the low end isn't super deep (not sure how I'd like it for 5-string) and there's definitely a peak in the mids, but it seems to work well with the 400 RB's natively scooped voice and there's no tweeter to get fizzy -- you don't get the "air" you do with a tweeter, but there's enough going on in the upper mids to make harmonics pop and the speakers are pretty efficient. Two 8 Ohm 2x10s, stacked vertically, would, I think, be a killer medium-budget rig with that amp (you might be able to find used Avatars with those speakers).

Power handling on those drivers (configured as 8 Ohm 210s) would be more than you'd need with the 400 RB -- there might be something more economical that would work better -- I can only say that the DIY110s with the Deltalite IIs with the 400 RB are a nice match -- two such 210s would've been an outstanding 80s-early 90s rig. ;)

Sounds like you've managed to get better results, now, with your 4x10, though?
 
#13
Thank you all for the suggestions so far. It really was surprising about the watts thing. I was for sure I had 200. I should have sprung for a louder amp, not because I’ll blast windows but I prefer something loud to be turned down than something slightly not loud enough cranked. Just a preference typically.
 
#14
Mechayoshi said:
Thank you all for the suggestions so far. It really was surprising about the watts thing. I was for sure I had 200. I should have sprung for a louder amp, not because I’ll blast windows but I prefer something loud to be turned down than something slightly not loud enough cranked. Just a preference typically.
Click to expand...

I feel ya, but set the knobs where you need to set them and see how the amp feels -- is it compressing? Running warm? Does it hold together if you turn it up a bit?

The 400 RB III is, relatively speaking, a lower-powered amp, but if your cab is efficient, I think you might be surprised with how it'll push it. Anyway, try before you go shopping for a new amp (and/or cab).

Re. the AK cabs mentioned a couple of posts up, they are indeed fantastic -- and folks seem to like them with their GK amps -- but one will need to keep in mind sensitivity if you want to get loud with a 400 RB. The 12" cab (Hathor 1203) is great, but 8 Ohms and only moderately sensitive (94 dB/W/m per cab). The Hathor 1506 (or older 1505, which you might find used) are 4 Ohms and conservatively rated at 98 dB/W/m. One of those would be a better choice with a 400 RB, though the amp still won't push it to its potential. A used one will stretch your stated budget by a couple of hundred dollars.
 
#16
Mechayoshi said:
There’s a Warwick wca 411 pro available locally for 300$. Does anyone think that would be worth going for?
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Don't know enough about that cab to tell you. I'd want to know, at minimum, if it was 4 Ohms or 8 Ohms and how its sensitivity (assuming you're having trouble getting loud enough now) compares with that of your current 410.

If planning to replace the cab, I'd want to know that it was going to be an improvement. If you're thinking of running them together (cab would need to be 8 Ohms, then), I'd be worried that two 410s from different companies might not work that well as a pair.

You mentioned that things improved when you turned the amp up. How's that going?
 
#17
MarkA said:
Don't know enough about that cab to tell you. I'd want to know, at minimum, if it was 4 Ohms or 8 Ohms and how its sensitivity (assuming you're having trouble getting loud enough now) compares with that of your current 410.

If planning to replace the cab, I'd want to know that it was going to be an improvement. If you're thinking of running them together (cab would need to be 8 Ohms, then), I'd be worried that two 410s from different companies might not work that well as a pair.

You mentioned that things improved when you turned the amp up. How's that going?
Click to expand...
Oh, about that. Yes I did the maxed out master thing, honestly it was about the same. I don't have room for two large cabs but two 210s or 212 or two 112 or something could work, but of course I'm having to purchase two cabinets. The Warwick cab is 8 ohms and in town. I was really trying to avoid ordering such heavy objects if I could help it. Some of the suggestions in this thread I just can't really find anywhere. I am willing to be patient of course. Heres a product page.
en/Warwick---Discontinued-Amps--Cabinets--411---4-PRO--Features.html

I was already scoping out higher powered heads in the future so I don't want to put too much emphasis on the GK 400rb when I may go for something more powerful down the line anyway.
 
#19
Mechayoshi said:
Oh, about that. Yes I did the maxed out master thing, honestly it was about the same. I don't have room for two large cabs but two 210s or 212 or two 112 or something could work, but of course I'm having to purchase two cabinets. The Warwick cab is 8 ohms and in town. I was really trying to avoid ordering such heavy objects if I could help it. Some of the suggestions in this thread I just can't really find anywhere. I am willing to be patient of course. Heres a product page.
en/Warwick---Discontinued-Amps--Cabinets--411---4-PRO--Features.html

I was already scoping out higher powered heads in the future so I don't want to put too much emphasis on the GK 400rb when I may go for something more powerful down the line anyway.
Click to expand...

From the page you linked:

Specification 411-8 PRO

Plenty of bass with fast response and well defined mids. Good as standalone, or in a pair, with the WCA 115 Pro or WCA 211 Pro. The adjustable HF horn provides a clear attack and brilliance.
  • Power rating: 600W (max. 800W)
  • 8 ohms (also available with 4 ohms)
  • 106dB
  • 4 x 10" speakers (power rating 150W, max. 200W, 8 ohms, 94dB)
  • resonant frequency: 50Hz, frequency range: 45Hz-3500Hz)
  • HF horn with attenuator (power rating 30W, max. 40W, 8 ohms, 95dB)
  • resonant frequency: 2,5kHz, frequency range: 1,2kHz-20kHz)
  • Bass reflex housing
  • Weight: 39 kg
  • Dimensions (W/H/D): 0,62 x 0,67 x 0,49 m
The 106 dB sensitivity (?) rating seems dubious -- I would need some context for that to take it seriously. Still, it might be a very good (and very efficient) 410. I'd look to see if you can find some reliable reviews from people who've actually used one -- or see if you can (safely) try it out (ideally next to your 410, though that might not be practical or necessary).

410s are not my fave form-factor for a cab -- I'd much rather have a vertical 2x12, 2x15, or similar -- but they are ubiquitous and a good one is loud enough (with a well-matched amp) for most stuff. As @BogeyBass said, Ampegs, Edens, GKs, etc., are plentiful enough, and a GK head with a sealed Ampeg seems to be a good match.

The Avatar 210s loaded with the Deltalite IIs (or their version of the Deltalite IIs -- not clear what the case is with that) seem to be pretty good cabs and turn up used, now and then, for not much $. Two of those might not be bad. You might be able to score a couple of the GK Neo 112s used for around $500 -- or two of the Neo 212s for more than that. (The 112s and 212s are each 8 Ohms, so don't mix them.)

If you're looking for a more powerful amp, 700 (or even 1001) RB IIs often turn up for not much and, like the 400 RB, are pretty compact.
 
#20
2x15 sounds like great idea

If you get bored, get another one.

I'd say 4x15 is my favorite sound, aside from the boring old 810E I've been using.

But for smaller form factor, 212 is the norm these days
 
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