Fralin/Bartolini compatibility? (or general active-passive)

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PlayItAway

Apr 24, 2014
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#1
So this is sort of about two different basses that I have.

The first one has a pretty interesting layout: one single P-bass pickup, but ample room for an active preamp, with space for four knobs and a switch.

I put in a Lindy Fralin pickup, and had someone connect it to a Bartolini TCT. They made a custom active/passive harness with the 3-band EQ, mid selector switch, and a passive tone as well. The idea being that in passive mode it could work like a regular P bass, but the TCT could give it a bit of extra Vintage Vibe(TM).

Unfortunately, not everything worked out as planned. While the TCT actually worked as expected and sounded quite lovely, the bass almost always made a considerable amount of noise. Mostly a buzz whenever I wasn't touching the strings, but sometimes it would be super loud even if I was.

I then took the bass to a shop (more vintage-oriented and experienced than the person who put my harness together) and they said that the Fralin and the TCT are actually not right for each other at all. They said that for the TCT to sound good, the bass would need an active pickup. I was confused about this, because I have other basses with full Bartolini electronics which can be played in passive mode. But I guess those pickups are still wired differently from the more traditional ones?

This would make sense to me, because this reminded me of the second bass I'm going to talk about: a fretless PJ currently set up with a Bartolini bridge pickup, a Bartolini NTBT preamp, and a mystery P pickup in the neck. The bridge pickup has always been fine, but the P pickup has always made a ghastly amount of hum. I was thinking of getting a Bartolini P pickup to match, but I just scored a Fralin PJ set in a trade.

So my first question: am I right in guessing that Bartolini pickups, while technically passive, are still wired differently from other passive pickups and should be coupled with an active OBP?

And secondly: where do I go from here?

I had the vintage shop rewire the one P bass just like a regular P bass, so now the other knobs and the switch are just for show. It sounds great, but I would love to unlock this bass's full potential. Are there some OBP's that are made specially for pickups like this? The Tone Monster SEB3-ABPA+&MT looks promising, though I'd have to find a way to hardwire the balance to always be on one side.

As for the PJ - is it worth trying to put the Fralin set into the Bartolini OBP, or is it better to just get a passive vol-blend-tone setup? (I can't stand vol-vol-tone.)
 
#2
I have had better experiences with EMG preamps. They make a model to go with passive pickups. I had two Bart passive soapbars in a bass I used to have and the EMG pre was dead quiet, versatile, and my sound man liked it.
 
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#3
iiipopes said:
I have had better experiences with EMG preamps. They make a model to go with passive pickups. I had two Bart passive soapbars in a bass I used to have and the EMG pre was dead quiet, versatile, and my sound man liked it.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, didn't even think of EMG! I'm looking on their website now, and the BTS system HZ looks cool - were there other models you had in mind? I'd still like to be able to do active/passive switching, and I don't think I've ever seen that from EMG.
 
#4
PlayItAway said:
Oh yeah, didn't even think of EMG! I'm looking on their website now, and the BTS system HZ looks cool - were there other models you had in mind? I'd still like to be able to do active/passive switching, and I don't think I've ever seen that from EMG.
Click to expand...
It has been quite awhile, but I think that is the pre I had. Some systems don't use a bridge ground, so read the installation instructions carefully, including the page about the treble contour DIP switches to tailor your tone.
 
#5
iiipopes said:
It has been quite awhile, but I think that is the pre I had. Some systems don't use a bridge ground, so read the installation instructions carefully, including the page about the treble contour DIP switches to tailor your tone.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming one of those knobs is pickup blend, or a second volume? Since my bass has only one pickup, I wonder if there'd be a way to get rid of that, add a passive tone - and maybe even wire up a switch for active/passive switching. I wouldn't know where to begin figuring out how exactly this thing is wired.
 
#6
@PlayItAway , what you describe is perfectly possible, and relatively easy for someone who knows how to build a harness. Depending on your location, there might be qualified techs in your neighborhood.
 
#8
PlayItAway said:
I'm assuming one of those knobs is pickup blend, or a second volume? Since my bass has only one pickup, I wonder if there'd be a way to get rid of that, add a passive tone - and maybe even wire up a switch for active/passive switching. I wouldn't know where to begin figuring out how exactly this thing is wired.
Click to expand...
1) I have found active/passive to be useless. Nobody can hear the difference out front; the difference in levels will irritate your sound man; and without added buffering you will get a loud "pop" when you switch between active/passive in a live setting.
2) I have active EMG soapbars on my gig bass. I do have an EMG tone at the end of the signal chain to the jack that I keep at 8 or 9 to get rid of that final residual hiss to be dead quiet. This keeps my sound man happy with our Behringer digital board.
3) If you only have one pickup, hmmm. The BTC HZ directions don't seem to give an option of single pickup wiring, since the ABC control is where the buffering occurs. I would contact EMG for help, because I'm sure they have a solution. If you had an EMG active pickup, yes, you could bypass the ABC and go straight to the pre. I'm sure they have other options.
 
#9
PlayItAway said:
Thanks for the heads up, but there are a few things I described so I'm not sure what you're referring to, sorry

Could you please clarify?
Click to expand...

Sorry:

  • You can definitely use the EMG preamp with a single pickup
  • You can definitely add a passive tone knob
  • You can definitely add an active/passive switch
 
#10
The TCT definitively works with any passive pickup, there is no requirement to have active pickups with this preamp. To me it sounds like it was either installed incorrect (ground wire missing or wrongly connected) or it doesn't work properly without the blend pot. With the former being the far more likely source of error.

Maybe you can check all the wiring using the diagrams on the Bartolini website as a start? Or bring it to a tech who knows electronics and doesn't try to dismiss you with nonsense about active pickups.
 
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#11
The only compatability issues I've heard of with active pres, is if they are designed for only active pickups, or only passive pickups. Seymour Duncan I believe had those. So, unless the Fralins are just a noisy pickup, it sounds like the hum may be a grounding issue. Is your bridge grounded? Is the bass shielded? I have passive Bart soapbars in my Frankenfretless with a Benavente 18V 3 band pre with an active/passive switch. There is no hum or other noise in either mode and no pop when switched.
 
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#12
These terms get batted around, but here's the short version:

'Active' electronics is a fairly useless catch-all marketing speak from this standpoint:

Active electronics generally means to most people that you have cut and boost for treble and bass, and sometimes mids and/or variable mids where you pick the point to boost or cut in the midrange. This requires a battery to power this feature set.

Now, it may be connected to passive pickups (the pickups in any bass with no batteries on board, like a traditional Jazz, Precision, or Ric, just to name a few), and the preamp/active tone control for this is equipped to handle their relatively higher output, as opposed to . . . .

Active (or low impedance) pickups. Genuine EMG or Bartolini active pickups (to name a few) require a preamp for each pickup (often internal in the pickup shell) to boost their output to a useable value to go into an active tone network, and those (like an EMG BTS or BTC system) are built to work with that lower output. And now the output is up to where it needs to be to plug into your guitar or bass amp.

So you can see where mixing the two worlds may take some creative (!) wiring to work properly. And if the match of the two is not carefully considered, it's not uncommon for a set of hot passive pickups with an added after market preamp can boost a lot of noise as well as the pickup output if it's just a mismatch, or a poor installation without careful shielding, grounding, etc.

Personally, I prefer an all active (low impedance pickups and the proper bespoke tone controls) or an all passive setup, though in some cases (the Yamaha BB's or MusicMan comes to mind) the factory setup can be very good. And why sometimes, these things added and combined later don't always yield the hoped-for results.
 
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#13
J Wilson said:
So you can see where mixing the two worlds may take some creative (!) wiring to work properly. And if the match of the two is not carefully considered, it's not uncommon for a set of hot passive pickups with an added after market preamp can boost a lot of noise as well as the pickup output if it's just a mismatch, or a poor installation without careful shielding, grounding, etc.

Personally, I prefer an all active (low impedance pickups and the proper bespoke tone controls) or an all passive setup, though in some cases (the Yamaha BB's or MusicMan comes to mind) the factory setup can be very good. And why sometimes, these things added and combined later don't always yield the hoped-for results.
Click to expand...
That may have been the case in the 80s and/or 90s when active pickups were all the rage and onboard preamps were new and speciality products. Nowadays almost any preamp will work with any passive pickup, except the few pre's that are made to work with active pickups (like the EMG examples mentioned).

Most major manufacturers make only passive pickups nowadays, including Bartolini. Therefore all their preamps are designed to work with passive pickups, otherwise a Bartolini pre wouldn't work with Bartolini pickups.

"Mixing the two worlds" has never been an issue in my experience I've played pickups from Bartolini, Delano, Nordstrand, Fralin, Yamaha, etc married to preamps from Aguilar, Bartolini, Glockenklang, Nordstrand, etc in various configurations. It's no witchcraft, with proper installation and grounding any passive pickup can work with any preamp made for passive (which is almost every preamp).

Look at the builders and manufacturers that mix and match. Fodera connects any Duncan, Aguilar or Nordstrand pickup to their Pope pre, Ibanez happily uses Nordstrand pickups with their proprietary pre or a Bartolini pre. Mayones combines pickups from Aguilar, Nordstrand, Bartolini, Delano, and their own brand with their proprietary preamp, unless you fancy an Aguilar or Bartolini pre, etc. Same with smaller luthiers with whom you can request almost any pickup with any pre. They will probably advise you that the eq curve of a certain pre or other specs are better suited for a specific pickup. But technically it's all possible.

All this is to say that the OP's choice of pickup and preamp sounds like as good a match as any to me. I'd even say that on paper it's a very nice match as the vintage inspired Fralin looks like a good match for the vintage inspired Bartolini pre. Just have it checked out by a pro and you should be fine with wat you've already got in your instrument.
 
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#14
And remember, even though EMG markets and sells preamp packages designed exclusively for active or exclusively for passive pickups, the actual tone shaping circuitry is still the same. Generally the differences that make one package suitable for active versus passive (or vice versa) have to do with the resistance values of the volume pots, and the blend approach (hi-resistance passive versus low-resistance passive versus active buffered blend).

I have on a number of occasions taken an EMG BTC or BTS - just the tone unit, without the accompanying volume or blend pots - and connected passive pickups directly to it with great results.
 
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#15
Mayo Fan said:
That may have been the case in the 80s and/or 90s when active pickups were all the rage and onboard preamps were new and speciality products. Nowadays almost any preamp will work with any passive pickup, except the few pre's that are made to work with active pickups (like the EMG examples mentioned).

Most major manufacturers make only passive pickups nowadays, including Bartolini. Therefore all their preamps are designed to work with passive pickups, otherwise a Bartolini pre wouldn't work with Bartolini pickups.

"Mixing the two worlds" has never been an issue in my experience I've played pickups from Bartolini, Delano, Nordstrand, Fralin, Yamaha, etc married to preamps from Aguilar, Bartolini, Glockenklang, Nordstrand, etc in various configurations. It's no witchcraft, with proper installation and grounding any passive pickup can work with any preamp made for passive (which is almost every preamp).

Look at the builders and manufacturers that mix and match. Fodera connects any Duncan, Aguilar or Nordstrand pickup to their Pope pre, Ibanez happily uses Nordstrand pickups with their proprietary pre or a Bartolini pre. Mayones combines pickups from Aguilar, Nordstrand, Bartolini, Delano, and their own brand with their proprietary preamp, unless you fancy an Aguilar or Bartolini pre, etc. Same with smaller luthiers with whom you can request almost any pickup with any pre. They will probably advise you that the eq curve of a certain pre or other specs are better suited for a specific pickup. But technically it's all possible.

All this is to say that the OP's choice of pickup and preamp sounds like as good a match as any to me. I'd even say that on paper it's a very nice match as the vintage inspired Fralin looks like a good match for the vintage inspired Bartolini pre. Just have it checked out by a pro and you should be fine with wat you've already got in your instrument.
Click to expand...

"It's no witchcraft, with proper installation and grounding any passive pickup can work with any preamp made for passive (which is almost every preamp)."

"Just have it checked out by a pro and you should be fine with wat you've already got in your instrument."

Words to live by, and insurance your setup WILL work for those that aren't technical.

But I still hear mismatches from time, so I'd have to agree to disagree just a little, and speaking just for myself, I still prefer a full-on low impedance active setup after years with Alembic and EMG setups. Yet on the other hand, I have a Squier Jazz with transplant Fender Yosemites in a passive setup that sound similar that I like a lot. Go figure.
 
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#16
I don't think Bartolini ever made active magnetic pickups. They usually are not high output except for a few specific models. I have a passive J bass with Bartolinis. I set the gain a tad higher on the preamp/amp than with a CIJ jazz.

I think you have a shielding and/or grounding issue. Also with the TCT on a P bass just get rid of the blend pot and connect the pickup non ground wire to the blend wire that goes to the preamp

Here's how you do it for single pickups

https://bartolini.net/wp-content/uploads/Docs/Harnesses/TCT-2.2.pdf
 
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