Double Bass French or German? I could use some knowledgeable advice.

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In my most recent foray into DB, I have been focusing more on Arco. I’ve played both French and German bows in the past, but this time around, the French bow is giving me some fatigue in my hand. The German bow feels better, but seems harder to maneuver around the strings.

With the French bow, I am holding a loose grip and allowing the weight of my arm to provide the tension on the strings. But after 1/2 hour or so, I can feel it in my hand. So I switch to a German grip just to continue practicing and the fatigue goes away.

Maybe it’s just that my hand needs to build up to it? I’m really focused on correct technique.

Do you feel there are advantages to French or German bow? Which do you prefer (& why)?
 
All things become equally eventually, I play both grips. German is far easier to get started on. The French grip needs to be correct before you get much out of it, the German you can hamfist out of the gate, and develop "proper" technique as you go.
Outside of that, there are incredible players who play both bows and pretty much anything can be done with either.

French is easier to switch quickly between pizz and arco, and easier for long tones on the E string.
German gives up a basic strong tone easier. The other advantage to German is that the French grip works FAR better on the German than German does on French!
It isn't bad to have both bows in the house.
 
In my most recent foray into DB, I have been focusing more on Arco. I’ve played both French and German bows in the past, but this time around, the French bow is giving me some fatigue in my hand. The German bow feels better, but seems harder to maneuver around the strings.

With the French bow, I am holding a loose grip and allowing the weight of my arm to provide the tension on the strings. But after 1/2 hour or so, I can feel it in my hand. So I switch to a German grip just to continue practicing and the fatigue goes away.

Maybe it’s just that my hand needs to build up to it? I’m really focused on correct technique.

Do you feel there are advantages to French or German bow? Which do you prefer (& why)?

It may be awhile before you really know the answer.

I had my choice when I first transitioned to bass from viola. The French bow seemed most familiar to me, but my hand and fingers would start hurting pretty quickly. The German bow was totally painless, and I feel it's better overall for switching between pizz and arco. You may be able to switch faster between pizz and arco with a French bow, but holding onto the French bow restricts your pizz playing more on fast passages than a German bow. At least it does with the holds I was taught did.

After I had been playing for a year or two, my German bow was accidentally destroyed so I had to play with a French bow. This occurred during All City or All Region concert prep, where we were working on some pretty heavy orchestral works with fast technical lines. To my surprise I was able to immediately play faster and cleaner with the French bow even though I had not used one for an extended time. The French bow did still cause me quite a bit of hand pain at this time, but I endured it.

For a period after this I played both French and German, using whichever was best suited for each piece of music. Eventually I transitioned to playing exclusively French. Over time through a combination of developing the necessary strength and learning proper technique, the hand pain went away. I never did learn to play fast pizz passages cleanly with a French bow in hand though.

There are plenty of bassists who use the German bow who can play me under a table. So don't take my experience as typical. It's possible that if I learned the right grip and technique, that I would have been able to play as fast, or faster with the German bow. But the motion used with the French bow just seemed more natural for speed and control, so I have my doubts. Overall I think the French is the best compromise for me, but the German does have some advantages.

You have to discover and weigh the pluses and minuses for yourself. Your physiology and mental processes are totally different than mine, so it's impossible for me to predict which is the best choice for you. For now, I suggest that you continue playing both.
 
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Yeah, the German is better for switching between long passages and the French for switching quickly within the same phrase. I can put the bow down and pick it up just as fast as the rotation in the hand the German takes to get into "pizz" position, so I tend to just do that. I have either a small table or chair at concerts or a quiver.

There was a period in the US when French was preferred for classical. In that time I had some young students who were primarily French players. I advised them to get a cheap German so they could continue practicing when the French caused pain early on.
It seems like there is less of that preference now.
I can play the French grip painlessly and use Rabbath's grip. Still, there is no real way to get there out of the gate.

The German bow was totally painless, and I feel it's better overall for switching between pizz and arco. You may be able to switch faster between pizz and arco with a French bow, but holding onto the French bow restricts your pizz playing more on fast passages than a German bow. At least it does with the holds I was taught did.
 
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Yeah, the German is better for switching between long passages and the French for switching quickly within the same phrase. I can put the bow down and pick it up just as fast as the rotation in the hand the German takes to get into "pizz" position, so I tend to just do that. I have either a small table or chair at concerts or a quiver.

There was a period in the US when French was preferred for classical. In that time I had some young students who were primarily French players. I advised them to get a cheap German so they could continue practicing when the French caused pain early on.
It seems like there is less of that preference now.
I can play the French grip painlessly and use Rabbath's grip. Still, there is no real way to get there out of the gate.

Yes, having a table/stand for the French bow is very helpful, but sometimes the transition to pizz is too fast to set the bow down. If the bow remains in hand, it limits my pizz technique. If the pizz passage is slow, it's no big deal. But if it's fast, it's a lost cause; I have to find some way to get rid of the bow. My observation is that bass sections often cover such transitions with a phased approach, I.E. different players agree to transition at a different point to ensure everything is covered.

Never been a fan of quiver, but I suppose that is a personal problem ;).

With the German bow, the pizz grip is totally different and my plucking fingers are not restricted by the bow. I don't feel it's ever necessary to put the bow down. This is one of the factors that I found very appealing about the German bow.

To this day I own a German and French bow.

As far as the grip I use on French...I have no idea what to call it. I think one important factor is finding the point where the bow has the right balance in your hand. Text book grips will often put you behind the balance point, so the bow is too tip heavy and the player has to muscle it around too much. Each bow is different and the grip must be adjusted accordingly.

The other part is getting confident with a very light grasp and gaining the ability to manage the pressure points, rather than clenching equally with all fingers all the time. The player must learn to apply strength only when and where it is needed, and this is a very tricky concept for inexperienced players to grasp and master. I must confess that I sent a few French bows flying due to losing control while exploring this concept.

I think it's also important to realize that the problem is beyond learning how to hold the bow properly. The use of gravity is relevant. The ability to pull energy from one's core is relevant. A nuanced understanding of how to pull sound from the instrument is relevant. In short, there are lots of little factors that eventually must come together so one can play the French bow without pain, and some of the factors are not directly related to bowing. I suppose this is why a good instructor can be invaluable.
 
As far as the grip I use on French...I have no idea what to call it. I think one important factor is finding the point where the bow has the right balance in your hand. Text book grips will often put you behind the balance point, so the bow is too tip heavy and the player has to muscle it around too much. Each bow is different and the grip must be adjusted accordingly.

The other part is getting confident with a very light grasp and gaining the ability to manage the pressure points, rather than clenching equally with all fingers all the time. The player must learn to apply strength only when and where it is needed, and this is a very tricky concept for inexperienced players to grasp and master. I must confess that I sent a few French bows flying due to losing control while exploring this concept.

I think it's also important to realize that the problem is beyond learning how to hold the bow properly. The use of gravity is relevant. The ability to pull energy from one's core is relevant. A nuanced understanding of how to pull sound from the instrument is relevant. In short, there are lots of little factors that eventually must come together so one can play the French bow without pain, and some of the factors are not directly related to bowing. I suppose this is why a good instructor can be invaluable.
Thanks. This is very helpful. I have worked with the low-strings instructor at the local university. He gave me a lot of good advice with regard to gravity and weight. I have also spent a lot of time working the French bow from its balance point, using only the weight of my arm.

A friend recommended this series of videos. The guy is a bit dry, but I found his instruction beneficial.
 
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Thanks. This is very helpful. I have worked with the low-strings instructor at the local university. He gave me a lot of good advice with regard to gravity and weight. I have also spent a lot of time working the French bow from its balance point, using only the weight of my arm.

A friend recommended this series of videos. The guy is a bit dry, but I found his instruction beneficial.

Quote from the video "Playing the bass is either easy or impossible" :roflmao:
 
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Another question - Can you play through whatever you are working on with only the weight of the bow at maybe mp? That was the key to my comfort with the French bow.
That’s actually what I’ve been focused on; loose-to-almost-no grip and using the weight of my arm only. Given what I’ve read here, I think it will come around in time.
 
I can play the French grip painlessly and use Rabbath's grip.
Rabbath’s grip seems to be the most widely accepted, although I saw a version that put the ring finger on the bow ring. That felt a bit more comfortable.
After you posted this, I went down the François rabbit hole. He’s spectacular.
 
I play 99% Pizz, but do a bit of Arco in some sections. What I like more about the French bow is that I can hold it with my third and fourth fingers and still pluck with my first two. That lets me switch back and forth quickly with plucking and and occasional bowing. That maneuver is just awkward for me to do with a German bow being so much wider at the frog end.

If I was a dedicated Arco player, I'd probably have chosen German since the hold seemed better to me for extended playing, but for my particular needs French won the toss up. You will see the occasional rare player using a German grip on a French bow. That would give fits to most Bass Teachers, but it seems to work for some so you could give that a try.

There's also the Italian grip for a French bow that is just a very slight variation on the French grip. You might want to look that up and see if that helps. I prefer it to the french grip for balance, but as I said I'm not a dedicated Arco player.
 
The best advice I can give to add on to what has already been said is not to break your wrist if you want to stick to the German bow primarily.

And if you do, don't then decide to stick to the German bow for another five years out of stubbornness.

If you do those things together, it hurts. A lot.