getting lost while soloing/walking a jazz tune and another question

J

J-B'ass

Sep 3, 2007
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#1
First of all, hello there! this'll be my first post on this lovely forum that has been very helpful so far, and I just had to get involved. Unless I posted something else which I have since forgotten about, which is a distinct possibility. Either way, it's my first post in a while :p
I've seen some really helpful threads about things like phrasing, what scale over which chord etc. while playing jazz, but my questions are a bit more mundane.

When soloing/walking over a jazz tune, first of all how do I not completely lose where I am in the tune? The answer can't just be to count 1 2 3 4, 2 2 3 4, 3 2 3 4, etc for each bar, but I have no idea how to stay on track, especially while trying to keep the rhythm from getting stale?
Last night I Sebastien De Kromm (Jamie Cullum's drummer) doing a clinic with a d'bass and sax player, and he said the way de didnt get lost as a drummer was to sing the melody of the tune in his head, which I thought was a great idea, but im not sure how that translates to bass especially when there's chords to deal with?

My other question is also when soloing/walking how to keep up with rapid fire chord changes? Jaco inspired me to take a look at Donna Lee, but Im quite lost. Being new to jazz, I'll probably keep my distance from that tune from a while anyway :ninja: I have no idea how those guys keep up
All replies extremely welcome :)help:)

By the way, I'v been playing for 5-ish years, and have been at the bass institute (as advertised here I was suprised to find) since July this year, so I'm comfortable with jazz theory, just not the approach/mentality/nack of not getting lost.

Thanks all :bassist:
 
#2
The bottom line is that this needs to cease being an intellectual exercise (memorizing chords, remembering or counting where you are, etc.) and become an aural exercise - you have to be able to hear both what's being played and what your internal line is AND the melody.

There are a lot of methodologies to use working on this, one that I've used with a lot of success is here. The other point I would make is, in addition to trying to memorize/hear the melody, learn the lyrics. ANY question you might have about phrasing, rhythm or where you are in the tune can be answered by the lyric line. Even in an AABA tune that has the same (or similar)melodic construction for all the A sections will have different lyrics for each of them.

But it ain't easy and it ain't quick. You have to build a good foundation for the walls that will hold up the roof. Ear training is key, improvisational exercises are key, familiarity with your instrument is key. Technique, functional theory and ear training are the tripod that's gonna sustain you.
 
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#3
J-B'ass said:
Sebastien De Kromm...said ...to sing the melody of the tune in his head
Click to expand...

That's really the trick. Jazz requires that you know the melody, and be able to feel it at all times, even when cats are soloing. Ideally, everybody in the group is playing in support to the melody of the composition. Also, keep in mind that most jazz follows a 16 or 32 bar form , and uses phrases of 4 or 8 measures. So try thinking in big four or eight bar phrases, too.

Really it's about knowing the song, feeling the song, in your head, ears and hands.

For rapid fore chord changes (like 2 or 4 chords in a single bar) i usually spend time anylizing the chord tones available and carefully construct a smooth line before playing. Very often a sequence of 4 chords within 1 bar will be implying some chromatic motion that can be incorporated into the bassline. also, the chords in question most often "lead to" the down beat of the subsequent measure.
 
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#4
Lots of good tips here.

Internalizing the melody and/or lyrics definitely helps.

The other things I use:

Listen to the tune or tunes over and over. Play them on the CD player in your car when you drive to work. Any time you can, listen to them. You need to get to the point where you can identify the tune by just a few bars played, either at the beginning or somewhere in the middle.

The other thing to realize is that nearly every section of most jazz tunes comes in 8 bars. So yes, count 1234, 2234, 3234, etc! Figure out the structure of the tune - AABA, AABA', AABC, whatever, and realize that each section in the structure is very likely 8 bars.

The other thing that I do when I have a lot of tunes to learn for a gig is put together a "cheat sheet" containing notes for each tune. Here is an example for one tune:

2. Seven Steps to Heaven (F major)
INTRO –
Bass alone for 4 bars
Add drums for 4 bars
Add piano for 8 bars
HEAD – 1X through AABAC
SOLO ORDER: (2X through form - DDEF)
Sax
Guitar
Piano
Drums!!
Trade 8s with drums
D – sax, D – drums, E – guitar, F – drums
D – piano, D – drums, E – bass, F- drums
SECTION C (bass)
HEAD - 1X through AABAC
CODA - tag last 2 bars 4X, tag section C

Note that the SOLO ORDER section won't apply for most gigs, this was for a concert. As I practice with the group, I update the notes, adding things I need to remember.

Hope that helps,

Jeff
 
#5
It might be helpful to listen to several versions of whatever tune you're working on. Hearing different arrangements will get your ear better at quickly hearing the essence of the tune, its melody and changes, because all the other elements will vary in each version.

iTunes is great for this. Just type in the name of a tune and tons of recordings of it will pop right up for only 99 cents a pop.

Ultimately I think you just have to listen to the tunes over and over again. Once you're at the point where you can play back the melody and changes in your mind's ear, then pick up the bass and try to play it.

The first few tunes are the hardest. After playing in a few bands and putting it all into practice, your mind will have all of the most common elements of standard tunes (AABA forum, III-VI-II-V's, II-V-I's, etc.) internalized such that learning more tunes becomes easier and easier. That's why a seasoned jazz player can "fake" a tune he doesn't know without a chart. He's played so many friggin' tunes that he can listen and anticipate on a very high level. But anyone can do it. If you just listen a lot and play a lot, the wisdom of your experience will guide you to this level.

Have fun!
 
#6
I'm just learning bass, but from playing t-bone for......11 years? and most of that in a jazz band, I'd say it's more like you feel the count. It's not purely feeling it, or purely counting it, because both can get you lost if the line you play changes a lot. Basically, you should be able to turn on a jazz tune in the middle and immediately be able to feel the first and third beat, or if it's more big-bandish then the two and four. Either way, when you play through enough of it you should be able to immediately feel the count.
 
#9
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#12
One thing that’s helped for both walking and soloing is focusing on hearing 2 and 4 bar phrases.

I sometimes still mess up a bar but as I can hear when the next 4 bars start I can quickly pick it up again. It also makes your lines a bit more interesting. Playing an idea 4 bars (e.g 4 bars ascending or descending) can sound much more musical than changing direction every bar. I think it’s part of understanding a song as more than a collection of random bars.
 
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#13
#14
I've been playing on a classical guitar since I was 10. I don't play classical per se but I play a lot of different stuff - Folk, bossa nova, jazz, jump, or anything I can think of. One thing I do is I'll just start playing a melody. It doesn't matter... it could be a TV commercial from the 60s, a movie theme from way back... Nelson Riddle tunes, all kinds of stuff... And then I just keep playing and work around the neck growing the melody and staying melodic the entire time, staying true to the purpose of this exercise.

This therapeutic thing that I've been doing for years has not gone unnoticed by my family and they called "his therapy." Which is simply to just play melodically for the sake of being melodic.

It transfers to electric bass quite simply.

My takeaway I think is that Melody's just don't happen you have to develop a melodic sense and it's not that difficult to do once you start playing around with Melodic passages from your head to your hands all around the neck.
 
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