Good, inexpensive solutions for chromatic pitch correction only?

[juggahnaught]

I'm using a Line 6 Helix to perform pitch-shifted three-part harmonies. It's not perfect for various reasons, but it's usable.

I'd like my vocals to be better. They're not horribly off (I can sing, and hit pitch) but what I'm noticing is that, since I'm pitch-shifting a single voice, certain little things like glides or vibrato get applied to everything and so it can sound a little sloppy. I'm thinking that chromatic pitch shifting might help to smooth this out a little bit, as well as correcting me in cases where I'm a few cents sharp or flat for a short period of time. (We'll have keys and pads in the mix, so the song foundation and backgrounds will be better if the backup vocals are perfectly tuned instead of being more natural, in my opinion.) I'm not planning to go heavy on the effect, but I'd just like to smooth the backing vocals.

There are many vocal processors that are large and provide many features. I only need chromatic pitch correction - no key detection, no instrument input, no other effects or processing, nothing like that. I plan to run this either through the Helix effects loop or before the mic input on the Helix, so both XLR and a quarter-inch connection would work in this case.

What are my options? Does anybody have input? Thank you!

 

[drpepper]

TC Helicon Mic Mechanic

You can dial in the amount of correction from none through the top of its range. If your mostly on and go with a low level of correction, it can sound pretty natural. I assume it's the case with all of them, the farther off you are the more artifacted it will sound.

 

[juggahnaught]

TC Helicon Mic Mechanic

You can dial in the amount of correction from none through the top of its range. If your mostly on and go with a low level of correction, it can sound pretty natural. I assume it's the case with all of them, the farther off you are the more artifacted it will sound.

I see that the Mic Mechanic has other features that I won't necessarily need to use. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I was wondering whether there was some solution with a third of those features at a third of that price.

I see that TC Helicon also makes the C1, which is just a pitch correction pedal, but it's around the same price (unfortunately). I was wondering whether there might be some options that I haven't thought of.

 

[SLO Surfer]

Sorry I don’t have experience with using pitch shifter or harmonizers. But if you go chromatic, won’t that mean some of the harmonies will fall out of the key of the song you’re singing in? Like, every manufactured note will be a set interval above or below the note you sing? So if it’s set to add a major third and perfect fifth above your voice, that major third harmony will be out of key and sound really bad when your singing hits the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and/or 7th scale degree of a major key.

edit: sorry I just re-read your post and you want a separate pitch correction device, not a chromatic harmony generator. Have you got a Mac computer with free Garage Band? Try running your voice through that and using the free pitch correction plug in feature?

 

[drpepper]

I see that the Mic Mechanic has other features that I won't necessarily need to use. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I was wondering whether there was some solution with a third of those features at a third of that price.

I see that TC Helicon also makes the C1, which is just a pitch correction pedal, but it's around the same price (unfortunately). I was wondering whether there might be some options that I haven't thought of.

Well, I guess "inexpensive" can be pretty subjective. $125 and turn off the unused (for now) features seems like a relative good deal to me. I don't know that you can reasonably expect to find anything for around $40. But I don't claim to know all of the products in the market.

I do know that the C1 isn't simply the pitch correction part of the Mic Mechanic; it's a different product. It tunes to a set key or off of an instrument input. The Mic Mechanic pulls to the nearest half-step. Again, if you're mostly on and a few cents off sometimes, it can be dialed back and keep things reasonably natural sounding. If you need stronger correction, you get artifacting. If you're more than 25 cents off, (aside from having no business singing in front of people in the first place) you're going to get pulled to the wrong note and sound like the love child of T-Pain and Ke$ha.

All that said..and I go back and forth...I don't know anything about the Helix, but it seems like you're asking effects to do an awful lot of work for you. If you're mostly on key, what I have to wonder is if you're making the perfect the enemy of the good. Everything that the effects do comes at the cost of artifacting...putting one effect on top of another? I understand that you are using generated harmonies, and I'm not sure how that might make errors compound, but the imperfections (being a few cents off now and then) in an otherwise on-key performance are actually what creates texture and tension that makes it sound natural.

Good luck with it.

 

[Groove Doctor]

It sounds more like vocal technique issues. Have you ever had a singing lesson from a really good singing teacher? Find someone with studio experience if you can. They have impeccable technique.

Are you able to record yourself singing at home? This is the best way to hear where you mess up, and iron out your vocal delivery. Keep re-recording a song until you’re 100% happy with it.

I’d try these before adding pitch correction.

 

[juggahnaught]

Do you have a tendency to sing flat a lot more than singing sharp?
Have you ever had a singing lesson from a really good singing teacher?

Diaphragm breathing exercise, daily pitch/technique exercises, plus overall cardio fitness/basic core strength exercises will be a massive help.

Swimming and jogging are the most popular for singers. Don’t exercise within 3 hours prior to singing - you’ll be fatigued.

Try the exercise for 1-2 months and see if that helps. If not, 1-2 singing lessons will set you up with a good set of voice exercises to work on.

Used to sing a lot when I was younger, in secular choirs and in church choirs, and also did theater stuff. But that's been 20 years. I know how it should be done, but I am out of practice, and that's not going to change in 28 days. Additionally, I've never really sung professionally while playing an instrument, which does change things a little bit.

I've been a little sharp lately. I have perfect pitch, but as I've gotten older and stopped singing, it's been a little off lately. I can't describe it. (I did, however, realize that one cause of the sharpness I was hearing from the monitor was due to the plate reverb I was using on the vocals. Switching that to a delay timed to the BPM of the song cleaned up the drift quite a bit more than I expected, although it does mean that I can't push the vocals back in the mix. However, there will be less feedback potential with delay than reverb, I think.) But the more important thing is that any type of imperfection - like a vocal wobble in a weak spot between my chest voice and head voice, or a glide to a short note that doesn't quite make it there - is magnified by the three-part harmony. I don't need it to be robotic, but I'd like to clean that up a little more just to create a better foundation for the music overall. I'm not a bad singer, but since this is a dinner gig where we're playing professional background music, it should sound professional. I don't have an ego about it.

You aren't wrong at all, but this is the professional, ego-less fix to tiny pitch issues. If I weren't using the harmonizer, I wouldn't worry to do this.

Well, I guess "inexpensive" can be pretty subjective. $125 and turn off the unused (for now) features seems like a relative good deal to me. I don't know that you can reasonably expect to find anything for around $40. But I don't claim to know all of the products in the market.

I do know that the C1 isn't simply the pitch correction part of the Mic Mechanic; it's a different product. It tunes to a set key or off of an instrument input. The Mic Mechanic pulls to the nearest half-step. Again, if you're mostly on and a few cents off sometimes, it can be dialed back and keep things reasonably natural sounding. If you need stronger correction, you get artifacting. If you're more than 25 cents off, (aside from having no business singing in front of people in the first place) you're going to get pulled to the wrong note and sound like the love child of T-Pain and Ke$ha.

All that said..and I go back and forth...I don't know anything about the Helix, but it seems like you're asking effects to do an awful lot of work for you. If you're mostly on key, what I have to wonder is if you're making the perfect the enemy of the good. Everything that the effects do comes at the cost of artifacting...putting one effect on top of another? I understand that you are using generated harmonies, and I'm not sure how that might make errors compound, but the imperfections (being a few cents off now and then) in an otherwise on-key performance are actually what creates texture and tension that makes it sound natural.

Good luck with it.

Yeah, I was hoping that there was something ridiculously simple without any extra features at a lower price point - just chromatic pitch correction to a specified reference hz (440). I hear what you're saying about mostly on key, and part of what I was hearing might have been the smear from the plate reverb (which I've swapped out for a simple delay timed to the BPM of the music with little feedback, which fixes the issue and cuts down on potential feedback issues). But we're playing a professional dinner gig, and the way I see it - if I can get a little vocal cleanup, it'll go a long way to making things sound polished and professional. Backup singers usually achieve a vocal blend and tiny imperfections are covered by the other voices. With the harmonizer, all the imperfections happen at the same time, so it's a lot more noticeable, at least to me.

Of note, my harmonizer just shifts the pitch by a predetermined interval value. It does support keys and different scales - which I am using to great effect - but it won't "snap" the generated harmonies to a 440hz reference. Essentially, the harmonies are not auto-tuned. Thus, if I'm a little sharp, all of the harmonies will be a little sharp. As such, I don't need extreme correction, but I do think that a little bit of polish would go a really long way to making things sound awesome. Running the pitch correction before the harmonizer with a subtle setting would achieve this. I don't think that artifacting would be an issue in this case although I do understand the concern.

 

[Groove Doctor]

I've been a little sharp lately. I have perfect pitch, but as I've gotten older and stopped singing, it's been a little off lately. I can't describe it.

You should have said you had perfect pitch. You’re probably the only person who can hear it or it bothers you.

Don’t see it as a robotic performance - you just need to refine your technique, which as you said, won’t happen in 28 days for that gig.

Record yourself singing while playing bass and start working on the worst of your vices.
- Shorten the length of notes you glide into, and use glides sparingly.
- Develop control of moving from no vibrato to a fine vibrato and back.
- Turn down or turn off Delay in your monitor/IEMs. A close to dry signal is always easier to pitch with.

 

[juggahnaught]

You should have said you had perfect pitch. You’re probably the only person who can hear it or it bothers you.

Don’t see it as a robotic performance - you just need to refine your technique, which as you said, won’t happen in 28 days for that gig.

Record yourself singing while playing bass and start working on the worst of your vices.
- Shorten the length of notes you glide into, and use glides sparingly.
- Develop control of moving from no vibrato to a fine vibrato and back.
- Turn down or turn off Delay in your monitor/IEMs. A close to dry signal is always easier to pitch with.

This is an early practice recording of what I'm doing - before EQ and microphone tweaks - it's below. The audio's also bad because I recorded it on my phone. But yeah, you can hear that while I'm roughly on pitch, any shaky areas kind of just sound poopy (the worst offender is the "Tears in my eyes girl" portion, as that's right in the dead spot between my head and chest voice). I'm not proud of this - it makes me cringe a little - but here it is. Feel free to tear it apart.

Details - I'm playing through my K12.2 and running the vocals through the same channel. I'm playing with an IEM click/backing track that we'll be using. I'm trying to project a little while trying not to sing too loudly (neighbors) so it's kind of in a weird spot. Incidentally, the hardest part of playing and singing is actually breathing correctly. This is an early recording, so the harmonies are off (you can hear me trying to switch them correctly during the variation - I've made this better). Speaker volume is also low in comparison to my raw voice, since I'm practicing in an apartment - my hope is that the audience will be hearing more of the speaker output and less of me, which isn't the case here. I believe this is also before the EQ changes I made for mic clarity. These aren't excuses, just facts so you have more information.

Basically - I feel that even though this is a practice video, it feels and sounds amateurish. I do think that a pitch correction pedal could tighten things up just a little bit, and even that little bit might be enough to avoid any cringeworthy moments. I hope that makes sense.

 

[drpepper]

Yeah, I was hoping that there was something ridiculously simple without any extra features at a lower price point...

...my harmonizer just shifts the pitch by a predetermined interval value...if I'm a little sharp, all of the harmonies will be a little sharp.

Running the pitch correction before the harmonizer with a subtle setting would achieve this. I don't think that artifacting would be an issue in this case although I do understand the concern.

All makes sense. If you're determined to do it or try it, it seems that the Mic Mechanic's pitch correction is precisely what you're looking for. Also, while I understand your thinking (that since you don't need or want the reverb, echo, and tone, there should be something that is only a portion of the price), I would think that even if the Mic Mechanic was only pitch correction, I'd still expect to be somewhere in the same price range when I just consider it.

Side curiosity...I find perfect pitch an absolutely fascinating subject. Do you actually have perfect pitch, true perfect pitch, or just well trained relative pitch or naturally good sense/persistence of pitch?

The best and easiest to grasp explanation I've heard is that perfect pitch is developed at the same time initial language acquisition occurs. In the fist few years, the brain is like a sponge and it picks up the essentials and physiological bases of the language(s) it's being exposed to (the ability to hear, distinguish, and make certain sounds). It can also pick up essentials of complex and unpredictable music if there's exposure to that. Those pathways shut down and become hard wired into the brain in a way that's analogous to the ability to distinguish between colors that people with normal vision have. Even before the names of the colors are known, they can be distinguished. When note names are added for someone who has perfect pitch, they then have the tools to identify and communicate those sounds that are already clearly delineated in their brain as musical notes. Just as someone with normal vision can't be unsure if they're seeing blue or red, someone with perfect pitch can't be unsure if they're hearing an F or F#...they are absolutely distinct things.

That concept makes it easy to understand how off-key sounds can be so grating to people with perfect pitch, but but so difficult to understand how people with perfect pitch who can also sing can be off key. I'd think it would almost force you to sing on key.

Sorry for the sidetrack

 

[juggahnaught]

All makes sense. If you're determined to do it or try it, it seems that the Mic Mechanic's pitch correction is precisely what you're looking for. Also, while I understand your thinking (that since you don't need or want the reverb, echo, and tone, there should be something that is only a portion of the price), I would think that even if the Mic Mechanic was only pitch correction, I'd still expect to be somewhere in the same price range when I just consider it.

Side curiosity...I find perfect pitch an absolutely fascinating subject. Do you actually have perfect pitch, true perfect pitch, or just well trained relative pitch or naturally good sense/persistence of pitch?

The best and easiest to grasp explanation I've heard is that perfect pitch is developed at the same time initial language acquisition occurs. In the fist few years, the brain is like a sponge and it picks up the essentials and physiological bases of the language(s) it's being exposed to (the ability to hear, distinguish, and make certain sounds). It can also pick up essentials of complex and unpredictable music if there's exposure to that. Those pathways shut down and become hard wired into the brain in a way that's analogous to the ability to distinguish between colors that people with normal vision have. Even before the names of the colors are known, they can be distinguished. When note names are added for someone who has perfect pitch, they then have the tools to identify and communicate those sounds that are already clearly delineated in their brain as musical notes. Just as someone with normal vision can't be unsure if they're seeing blue or red, someone with perfect pitch can't be unsure if they're hearing an F or F#...they are absolutely distinct things.

That concept makes it easy to understand how off-key sounds can be so grating to people with perfect pitch, but but so difficult to understand how people with perfect pitch who can also sing can be off key. I'd think it would almost force you to sing on key.

Sorry for the sidetrack

Yeah, my parents were musicians and I grew up with a piano in the house. I used to fall asleep listening to classical music and other types of stuff as well - calypso, latin stuff, Chick Corea, R&B and soul classics. We also went to church a lot and I heard a lot of hymns and choral music. So yeah, I would definitely say that I learned music to a certain extent before I learned language. Unfortunately, I didn't really know how to reproduce it - I do wish that's a skill that I learned much earlier on. When I was really young I used to sing all the time and that's something that carried through to the end of high school.

Singing on-key is something that happens naturally, but I've found that I can drift a little more as I get older. I also find a bit of "sanity slippage", if that makes sense - playing instruments that are slightly out of tune, or something with intonation that isn't ideal, can start to mess with you after a while because you start thinking that you're wrong and that other things are right. (Pantera's Cemetery Gates really messed me up for a long time.) I've also found - perhaps a consequence of not singing anymore - that my pitch recognition and sensitivity has gotten a lot worse than it once was. I can hear something and not be able to identify it without a reference pitch, and that's something that never used to happen. (One thing that is common is that I'm a semitone off when I identify a note - I'll think that an A is a B-flat or something until I sing the pitch or play it. I never used to have to do that.) I think that there's a natural feedback loop between hearing and singing, and I think that as kids we develop this pretty naturally, as you said. I do think that, at least in my case, letting that feedback loop atrophy for 20 years or so has resulted in slightly less-than-perfect pitch - slower pitch recognition, being off by a few cents, being less sensitive to keys, etc - but I think that I could get back to my previous levels with some singing practice. Luckily, I still have the ability. I just feel like I've lost some confidence in it. To use the color analogy (which is absolutely correct and spot-on), it feels like sometimes there's almost a miscalibration - I might see orange and think it's red. I don't know how to describe it accurately.

I do think that music is a language, and I do think you're right about the way we learn it when we're young. It's similar to how kids can pick up Chinese easily, but adults who haven't been exposed to a tonal language before may have troubles hearing and recreating the tones.

I'll definitely look into the Mic Mechanic. The C1 makes sense, but I guess that the Mic Mechanic could be used standalone, and even if I don't need it now it could be handy later.

 

[Supadope]

I use the TC Voicetone Correct for just this purpose. I can be a little pitchy and it pushes me up or down to the right note. I don’t think they make them any longer, but you can probably find a used one. The other option would be the TC Mic Mechanic.

 

[drpepper]

Yeah, my parents were musicians and I grew up with a piano in the house. I used to fall asleep listening to classical music and other types of stuff as well - calypso, latin stuff, Chick Corea, R&B and soul classics.

...I can hear something and not be able to identify it without a reference pitch, and that's something that never used to happen. (One thing that is common is that I'm a semitone off when I identify a note - I'll think that an A is a B-flat or something until I sing the pitch or play it. I never used to have to do that.) I think that there's a natural feedback loop between hearing and singing, and I think that as kids we develop this pretty naturally, as you said. I do think that, at least in my case, letting that feedback loop atrophy for 20 years or so has resulted in slightly less-than-perfect pitch - slower pitch recognition, being off by a few cents, being less sensitive to keys, etc - but I think that I could get back to my previous levels with some singing practice

Thanks for the interesting background.

Sorry, last of the side-track for me, again, it's just a fascinating topic. There does seem to anecdotal evidence that perfect pitch can be "lost" with age. Just from reading, the tendency is a shift to hear sharp (so, still absolute but "shifted," so wrong between the internal and external). Because it can be considered an innate ability that's simply undeveloped in the great majority of people in the small window where it's possible to develop it, if someone had it and "lost" it due to changes with age, it doesn't seem like it would be possible to train back into it. Kind of like having the idea that eyesight changes that occur with age can be trained away rather than being corrected with lenses.

Anyway, it sounds like the elements were in place for you to have developed perfect pitch. You'd know better than I would if you truly did. It's apparently common for people with well trained/developed relative pitch to believe that they have perfect pitch. It's also called "absolute pitch" though, which is probably a more accurately descriptive name because it reminds us that in being absolute, it either is or it isn't in effect (instantaneous and without error). "Slightly less than absolute" or "almost absolute" are other ways of saying NOT absolute.

I've also heard it said that it's not actually helpful to performance of music and can actually be a bit curse. I was jamming with some guys and one of them truly had perfect pitch. It was super informal, at his house, we were playing and he just stops and says to me "Can't you hear that's off?" I said "Umm, no" but I checked my tuning and we continued. A few minutes later, he just popped up without a word, looked at my bridge, left the room, came back with a screwdriver and proceeded to set the intonation on my bass (the G string was a bit out). He explained that to him, even in the midst of the sound of two guitars and the bass, every time I played fretted notes on the G string, he heard the warbling sound like when harmonics are slightly out and could immediately identify my bass as the source and it was driving him nuts. It sounded completely fine to me. I find that I have a lower tolerance for someone being slightly out of tune than most everyone I play with and it can grate on me (damn B stings on Les Pauls or when a capo goes on a guitar and it isn't re-tuned) but this was crazy. That didn't seem quite like a gift, and in a lot of group settings he has the potential to be an unhappy camper...he can't run around with a screwdriver on his hip and take everything into his own hands.

 

[juggahnaught]

Thanks for the interesting background.

Sorry, last of the side-track for me, again, it's just a fascinating topic. There does seem to anecdotal evidence that perfect pitch can be "lost" with age. Just from reading, the tendency is a shift to hear sharp (so, still absolute but "shifted," so wrong between the internal and external). Because it can be considered an innate ability that's simply undeveloped in the great majority of people in the small window where it's possible to develop it, if someone had it and "lost" it due to changes with age, it doesn't seem like it would be possible to train back into it. Kind of like having the idea that eyesight changes that occur with age can be trained away rather than being corrected with lenses.

Anyway, it sounds like the elements were in place for you to have developed perfect pitch. You'd know better than I would if you truly did. It's apparently common for people with well trained/developed relative pitch to believe that they have perfect pitch. It's also called "absolute pitch" though, which is probably a more accurately descriptive name because it reminds us that in being absolute, it either is or it isn't in effect (instantaneous and without error). "Slightly less than absolute" or "almost absolute" are other ways of saying NOT absolute.

I've also heard it said that it's not actually helpful to performance of music and can actually be a bit curse. I was jamming with some guys and one of them truly had perfect pitch. It was super informal, at his house, we were playing and he just stops and says to me "Can't you hear that's off?" I said "Umm, no" but I checked my tuning and we continued. A few minutes later, he just popped up without a word, looked at my bridge, left the room, came back with a screwdriver and proceeded to set the intonation on my bass (the G string was a bit out). He explained that to him, even in the midst of the sound of two guitars and the bass, every time I played fretted notes on the G string, he heard the warbling sound like when harmonics are slightly out and could immediately identify my bass as the source and it was driving him nuts. It sounded completely fine to me. I find that I have a lower tolerance for someone being slightly out of tune than most everyone I play with and it can grate on me (damn B stings on Les Pauls or when a capo goes on a guitar and it isn't re-tuned) but this was crazy. That didn't seem quite like a gift, and in a lot of group settings he has the potential to be an unhappy camper...he can't run around with a screwdriver on his hip and take everything into his own hands.

I think it can be retrained - I think it's something that you lose a little, but I think it's possible to maintain and rebuild through training (as it's not something that you really forget). There's a perfect pitch training tool on tonedear.com that I used for a while, along with an interval training tool. I liked them both but I saw the limitations, so I ended up building my own tool that allowed me to practice perfect pitch with single notes, intervals, triads, and four-note chords (the name is escaping me right now). This is more of a problem area for me now, as I do have to rely on relative pitch to pick out chords and their notes these days. It's something I wanted to train back (and I think it's something I would have maintained more easily if I played piano).

People who say it's not helpful to music are usually the ones that don't have it, or the ones who do have it but are influenced by the ones who don't (like Rick Beato's kid). It's really helpful to listen and know notes; it's easier to pick stuff up, and it's much easier to pick out voicings with polyphonic instruments. Thus, it becomes much easier to pick up complex songs by ear alone, as you know exactly what you need to play. It's true that depending on what you play (and also, on what you play) that it may be less useful for some than for others.

 

[juggahnaught]

Back to this thread with questions about the Mic Mechanic.

1. I see that the Mic Mechanic 2 has an "auto gain" setting for the mic. Is this going to bite me in the ass in a live situation? Is this going to annoy our soundperson?
2. Does anybody know the output levels of the Mic Mechanic? There's a microphone in, and based on "auto gain" it seems like there's a gain stage before the board. Because these are XLR connections, I'd have to run this before the Helix, not in some type of insert. I'd want to figure out the level of the outgoing signal from the Mic Mechanic going into the Helix XLR input.

I haven't purchased a solution yet. Based on the two questions above, I'm again considering the TC Helicon Pitch Correction pedal with fewer features, which may work well as an insert.

Of note, here are two links to audio samples of the vocals in question, direct in using the Helix as a USB interface. The first is my acapella singing vocal. (You can hear that it's a little wobbly - that's not autotune kicking in.) The second is a really lazy vocal glide to demonstrate how the shifting works - you can hear that the pitch will shift at certain thresholds, but will otherwise track the vocal with a mathematical interval (which is generally a good thing). Running pitch correction before this should help all of the vocals.

 

[juggahnaught]

Back to this thread with questions about the Mic Mechanic.

1. I see that the Mic Mechanic 2 has an "auto gain" setting for the mic. Is this going to bite me in the ass in a live situation? Is this going to annoy our soundperson?
2. Does anybody know the output levels of the Mic Mechanic? There's a microphone in, and based on "auto gain" it seems like there's a gain stage before the board. Because these are XLR connections, I'd have to run this before the Helix, not in some type of insert. I'd want to figure out the level of the outgoing signal from the Mic Mechanic going into the Helix XLR input.

Bump. Anyone have any ideas about this?