Guitars with bad vocals wants to sing back ups (looking for advise)

Highroler79

Highroler79

Apr 24, 2013
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#1
Hello TB, I am in a three piece band with a singer I do the backing vocals (I have in previous bands) I am not great but can do some harmonies and have the self-awareness to know when it is needed and when it is not.

Out Guitars is a good guitarist but has terrible vocals and is insisting that he sings too, I have tried to explain that the first thing an audience hers is the vocals on if they are off people will leave the show and we will not be booked back. I have recorded our live jams and listing back he still thinks it sounds OK??

He doesn’t take lessons, or go out and play solo and sing, is there any hope for someone like this are they doomed to shoot themselves in the foot, I don’t want to play live if it is not 100% and the sound is great.

What would you do?
 
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#6
Slater said:
you will just have to be brutally honest if you want the vocals to sound good.
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#7
If the drummer and singer back you (and they do, right?), you could just make "No" happen. But convincing bandmates trumps coercing them, and it'll be hard to convince your guitarist that it's a better idea if he doesn't sing.

Like highroler, I'm wondering what his limits are and whether some of them can be worked around. Some would-be singers struggle to hear themselves. Others haven't put in the work on interval recognition to "hear" their notes before they sing. Others get pulled onto the melody notes. Others get hit their cognitive limits trying to attend to different rhythms and harmony in their instrumental part and vocals.

If your guitarist's vocal tone isn't terrible everywhere in his range, you might be able to find songs in which he sings a simple pedal harmony for specific lines in a bridge or a chorus. If during the typical night, he can chime in for 4 or 5 songs, that may be enough to keep everybody happy.

Depending on his particular limits, his voice, and his ears, I might be willing to try putting him on IEMs, especially with an auto-tune box that is audible *only* in his IEM mix. That way, his wedge won't sour the stage sound or FOH, but he'll have the pitch-corrected note via his IEM mix—and it can be as loud as it needs to be to pull him on pitch. Of course, he'll need to be passably close to the right scale tone for this to work, and it's a beginner's crutch at best.

OTOH, if he can't hear when not to sing? Then you should have a mic mute before he hits the FOH mix. Open it up for the handful of lines that you've arranged for him and that he has proven he can repeatedly hit; the rest of the night keep it muted. Or just go back to option #1: hard "no."
 
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#8
Have a "vocal" practice and record it.

Listen to it as a group.

Show him up close and personal that he can't hit the notes and keep in tune.

Tell him to practice on his own, take vocal lessons, and get ear training.

Tell him when he can hit the notes and sing in tune consistently then he can sing with the group.

Until then, yeah, no. NO.

Just curious, how does his lead playing sound if he can't carry a tune?
 
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#9
derrico1 said:
If the drummer and singer back you (and they do, right?), you could just make "No" happen. But convincing bandmates trumps coercing them, and it'll be hard to convince your guitarist that it's a better idea if he doesn't sing.

Like highroler, I'm wondering what his limits are and whether some of them can be worked around. Some would-be singers struggle to hear themselves. Others haven't put in the work on interval recognition to "hear" their notes before they sing. Others get pulled onto the melody notes. Others get hit their cognitive limits trying to attend to different rhythms and harmony in their instrumental part and vocals.

If your guitarist's vocal tone isn't terrible everywhere in his range, you might be able to find songs in which he sings a simple pedal harmony for specific lines in a bridge or a chorus. If during the typical night, he can chime in for 4 or 5 songs, that may be enough to keep everybody happy.

Depending on his particular limits, his voice, and his ears, I might be willing to try putting him on IEMs, especially with an auto-tune box that is audible *only* in his IEM mix. That way, his wedge won't sour the stage sound or FOH, but he'll have the pitch-corrected note via his IEM mix—and it can be as loud as it needs to be to pull him on pitch. Of course, he'll need to be passably close to the right scale tone for this to work, and it's a beginner's crutch at best.

OTOH, if he can't hear when not to sing? Then you should have a mic mute before he hits the FOH mix. Open it up for the handful of lines that you've arranged for him and that he has proven he can repeatedly hit; the rest of the night keep it muted. Or just go back to option #1: hard "no."
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This seems like good advice to me.

As an ok singer, I have worked very hard over the last few years to become a lot better. I’m still hamstrung by a limited vocal range and deep voice, but I’ve come an amazingly long way.

The way I (we) did it was this, and you can share it with your guitarist:

Singer taught me harmonies for certain parts of songs. I recorded them on my phone and would woodshed them. I had the harmony part for reference, the harmony and melody part together, and just the melody so I could sing along with the harmony (that one was most useful). We looped the specific part three times or so. No point in having wasted space on the recording. We worked out a handful of songs. Once I could competently sing those harmonies we added more.

My vocalist uses a harmony pedal and that’s my cue when to add harmonies (but I often don’t).

We also have a few songs where I’m singing lead but he’s singing harmonies too the whole way.

This should satisfy your guitarists desire to sing and work on his harmonies. I also was willing to take direction and put in a lot of practice. If he’s not then get him out of the FOH and your monitor mixes. It’s one way or the other. Either he does a good job on a few limited things or he sings only for himself.

I read that Robbie Robertson’s mic was accidentally left on during the last waltz instead of being muted during songs and that was one reason the re-recorded everything.
 
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#11
Highroler79 said:
Out Guitars is a good guitarist but has terrible vocals and is insisting that he sings too, I have tried to explain that the first thing an audience hers is the vocals on if they are off people will leave the show and we will not be booked back. I have recorded our live jams and listing back he still thinks it sounds OK??
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Passive aggression (turning his mic off in FOH) doesn't solve anything. I'd tell the guy "we need a guitarist, and you're a good one, and we're happy we have you with us. But you are NOT a singer, and that is not going to be your role in this band. If that doesn't work for you, we'll find another guitarist ... one who doesn't sing, and doesn't insist he does". End of conversation.
 
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#12
RustyAxe said:
Passive aggression (turning his mic off in FOH) doesn't solve anything. I'd tell the guy "we need a guitarist, and you're a good one, and we're happy we have you with us. But you are NOT a singer, and that is not going to be your role in this band. If that doesn't work for you, we'll find another guitarist ... one who doesn't sing, and doesn't insist he does". End of conversation.
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Then you will lose a good guitarist. Who is going to stand for this autocratic behaviour?

I agree though that passive aggressive behaviour won’t solve anything either. If he knows he’s being turned off FOH and the reasons why, and also in your monitor mix so it doesn’t throw you off then it’s not passive aggressive behaviour. It’s recognizing his desires, goals and effort and giving him an opportunity. Now if he doesn’t recognize that and use the opportunity then I agree with you, tell him straight up it’s never going to work with him as a singer.
 
#13
craigie said:
Then you will lose a good guitarist. Who is going to stand for this autocratic behaviour?
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Guitarists grow on trees. Easily replaced in my experience. He's had a chance to recognize his shortcomings, and didn't. Any band member who doesn't or can't put the good of the band before his own ego-driven ambition is no asset. And any band who pays a member who isn't an asset is throwing time and money down the drain.

Now if he doesn’t recognize that and use the opportunity then I agree with you, tell him straight up it’s never going to work with him as a singer.
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Uh ... isn't that exactly what I said?
 
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#16
You can try to rehabilitate him. Good luck with that.

Or you and the drummer can take a stand and take away his mic while you're at it. In my band, a microphone is not a right, it is a privilege to be earned. You audition for a mic in my band, just like any other singer, and if you don't cut it, aren't offering anything of redeeming value, you don't get a mic.
 
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#17
Record a practice session where the Guitarist is singing as well. Maybe even record the same song(s) at different rehearsals.

Then all get together & listen back to the recording(s) critically. Be professional about it.
 
#20
RustyAxe said:
Passive aggression (turning his mic off in FOH) doesn't solve anything. I'd tell the guy "we need a guitarist, and you're a good one, and we're happy we have you with us. But you are NOT a singer, and that is not going to be your role in this band. If that doesn't work for you, we'll find another guitarist ... one who doesn't sing, and doesn't insist he does". End of conversation.
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I can’t believe that people are coming up with technical fixes to send a special auto-tuned dummy-mix to the guitarist’s monitors instead of just saying “your vocals are not up to the same standard as your guitar playing,” and leave it at that.
 
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