Gymnasium setup

[JenderBazzFass]

I've got a date coming up for my church gig that will take place in a gymnasium, which is used by the church for special occasions like a large holiday service, etc. However, we may be moving to this site on a temporary basis in the future.

I've no idea what the best setup would be, or how to dial in my sound for a large room like this. I'd like any advice or pitfalls I should avoid from anyone who's tried to play a room like this.

The room is a typical gymnasium. The size of a full-size basketball court, cinderblock walls, ceiling perhaps 40 feet high. Audience of 200-250 will be seated in folding chairs in a semicircle facing the band/podium. We're more or less against the side wall of the room (one of the long sides). There won't be a stage.

We will move the regular sound board to the room and use portable speakers on pedestals which are adequate for the room in terms of loudness. No idea how they reproduce bass. We use IEMs in our usual space, but I'm not sure if we will at this location or not.

Instruments used are probably acoustic guitar, a smallish drum kit, a vocalist, sometimes an electric, and me on the bass.

I have a P-Bass and a 5-string active/passive Jazz Bass at my disposal. Most weeks I play through the DI Out on my Genzler Magellan Pre pedal.

I have a Fender Rumble 40 combo which has a DI out and which I suppose I could use as a monitor. But I could buy a larger Rumble or something semi-affordable to use if needed.


So, given this scenario, what should I be thinking about? How can I do the best I can do for sound in a room like this? How would you approach EQ in this sort of a space?

Am I likely to have more success running the bass through the mains or would an amp perhaps work better?

Because this isn't our space (renting it), there won't be an opportunity to try anything out until the day of.


Thanks for any help you could provide.

 

[Spidey2112]

 

[EvilJ]

If it were me, I would be trying to find around 800 acoustic panels.

 

[g-dude]

I've got a date coming up for my church gig that will take place in a gymnasium, which is used by the church for special occasions like a large holiday service, etc. However, we may be moving to this site on a temporary basis in the future.

I've no idea what the best setup would be, or how to dial in my sound for a large room like this. I'd like any advice or pitfalls I should avoid from anyone who's tried to play a room like this.

The room is a typical gymnasium. The size of a full-size basketball court, cinderblock walls, ceiling perhaps 40 feet high. Audience of 200-250 will be seated in folding chairs in a semicircle facing the band/podium. We're more or less against the side wall of the room (one of the long sides). There won't be a stage.

We will move the regular sound board to the room and use portable speakers on pedestals which are adequate for the room in terms of loudness. No idea how they reproduce bass. We use IEMs in our usual space, but I'm not sure if we will at this location or not.

Instruments used are probably acoustic guitar, a smallish drum kit, a vocalist, sometimes an electric, and me on the bass.

I have a P-Bass and a 5-string active/passive Jazz Bass at my disposal. Most weeks I play through the DI Out on my Genzler Magellan Pre pedal.

I have a Fender Rumble 40 combo which has a DI out and which I suppose I could use as a monitor. But I could buy a larger Rumble or something semi-affordable to use if needed.


So, given this scenario, what should I be thinking about? How can I do the best I can do for sound in a room like this? How would you approach EQ in this sort of a space?

Am I likely to have more success running the bass through the mains or would an amp perhaps work better?

Because this isn't our space (renting it), there won't be an opportunity to try anything out until the day of.


Thanks for any help you could provide.

Stage wash is your friend - and enemy.

Make sure stage volume is as low as possible, so that monitoring doesn’t complicate the actual sound mix. 75dB or so is fine.

Don’t use cab sims. Don’t use reverb/echo. If you use chorus, tune the speed/width to the room by ear — it will sound off if it’s not right.

Tilt your cab at your head - everyone else should do the same. Move it as far from you as you can so that you can actually hear it better.

 

[nickpc]

If it were me, I would be trying to find around 800 acoustic panels.

We play our Praise services in a gym - very similar to the OP description except we do have a stage and all the speakers are suspended from the ceiling. And I think the estimate of 800 panels here could be a bit low.

Rehearsing without the congregation there will sound a lot different than when you have the bodies in the room soaking up the sound waves. The sound team needs to realize that and be on their game for tuning to how the room is working out that day - different size crowds and even different seating arrangements can impact the room sound. And the sound techs need to move around as well - moving just a few seats can expose some weird shifts to the sound. We have spots where the bass is really out front in the mix and just a few chairs away it's hardly audible.

 

[JenderBazzFass]

Thanks all. I expect this to be a challenge, and I think I have reasonable expectations on how good you can make bass in a room like this sound. Just want to hear any and all best practices or best equipment for the situation.

We have a sound guy who's pretty good and he moves around the room with the iPad adjusting things. But how do I put him in the best position with respect to the bass that I can?

We can't make any changes to the room or rehearse ahead of time, so the difficulty on this assignment is turned up to Hard I think

 

[EvilJ]

And I think the estimate of 800 panels here could be a bit low.

In my defense, I didn't have access to the HxWxL

 

[Discount Bassy]

Enough oversized foam hats can fix any problem.

 

[Engle]

Thanks all. I expect this to be a challenge, and I think I have reasonable expectations on how good you can make bass in a room like this sound. Just want to hear any and all best practices or best equipment for the situation.

We have a sound guy who's pretty good and he moves around the room with the iPad adjusting things. But how do I put him in the best position with respect to the bass that I can?

We can't make any changes to the room or rehearse ahead of time, so the difficulty on this assignment is turned up to Hard I think

Go easy on the volume and lower frequencies.
If you don't all have IEMs keep the group in tight formation so you can hear each other to keep the volume down.

 

[thebassgrognard]

Enough oversized foam hats can fix any problem.

Genius

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

I've got a date coming up for my church gig that will take place in a gymnasium, which is used by the church for special occasions like a large holiday service, etc. However, we may be moving to this site on a temporary basis in the future.

I've no idea what the best setup would be, or how to dial in my sound for a large room like this. I'd like any advice or pitfalls I should avoid from anyone who's tried to play a room like this.

The room is a typical gymnasium. The size of a full-size basketball court, cinderblock walls, ceiling perhaps 40 feet high. Audience of 200-250 will be seated in folding chairs in a semicircle facing the band/podium. We're more or less against the side wall of the room (one of the long sides). There won't be a stage.

We will move the regular sound board to the room and use portable speakers on pedestals which are adequate for the room in terms of loudness. No idea how they reproduce bass. We use IEMs in our usual space, but I'm not sure if we will at this location or not.

Instruments used are probably acoustic guitar, a smallish drum kit, a vocalist, sometimes an electric, and me on the bass.

I have a P-Bass and a 5-string active/passive Jazz Bass at my disposal. Most weeks I play through the DI Out on my Genzler Magellan Pre pedal.

I have a Fender Rumble 40 combo which has a DI out and which I suppose I could use as a monitor. But I could buy a larger Rumble or something semi-affordable to use if needed.


So, given this scenario, what should I be thinking about? How can I do the best I can do for sound in a room like this? How would you approach EQ in this sort of a space?

Am I likely to have more success running the bass through the mains or would an amp perhaps work better?

Because this isn't our space (renting it), there won't be an opportunity to try anything out until the day of.


Thanks for any help you could provide.

The sound is likely going to be unavoidably AWFUL because of the acoustics. Maybe it can be slightly less awful, however. The key will be for EVERYONE to keep volume to an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM. I would very strongly suggest using the least amount of bass amplifier volume you can tolerate as your own "personal bass monitor", and to put just a bit of bass/bass amp sound/signal into the PA, no matter how well it delivers bass on the premise of instead of one singe sound source with ALL the volume, spreading the sound source to two or three speakers with much less of the total volume per speaker to keep the mud and boominess down.

Also on the bass and amp, seek to use mid-focused and mid-forward tones, and cutting the low end as much as possible to reduce the boominess. Also, if possible cut the highest highs to avoid the "clack" and high-end transients, to the extent it doesn't compromise the mid-range. I've played gigs like this and simply using the bridge pickup of the Jazz bass instead of any other pickup setting made ALL the difference. The other critical parts that you can't directly change, is for EVERYONE else to play with the minimum tolerable volumes, and particularly for drummer to use brushes as a requirement. If they don't have them, someone should spend the money and buy them. Electric guitarists are particularly guilty of volume creep and violations. Buy a large LCD display decibel meter. Amazon has them cheap. Place it where it can be seen, and while not constantly staring at it, everyone pay consistent attention to the aggregate decibel readings and keep the volume in check that way too so that you don't start at one volume and end up 10 decibels higher by last song. Everyone needs to put on their performer face: Looking like you're enjoying it, while keeping ever-present mindfulness about the volume, hopefully in a way the audience won't notice.

Playing in environments like this always sounds awful, but with care and discipline from EVERY member of the band, it can sound less-awful, and be tolerable for both the band and audience.

Good luck!

 

[jimmydean]

All I can say is , I hope you have a really good PA and don't play too loud .........good luck !

 

[Carl Hillman]

I’d say, if everyone is using IEMs, just leave the amp at home. Let the PA speakers deliver the bass to the congregation.

Speakers aimed at the crowd will be clearer than sound from an amp bouncing and smearing around the room.

 

[ghiggin1079]

This scenario gives me indigestion DEFINITELY stick with the IEMs. DI no amp as much as you can. if you don't have a drum fort, get one or give him or her a day pass. Someone mentioned foam hats, if you're in Wisconsin specifically Green Bay this is a suggestion that shouldn't be discounted

 

[JenderBazzFass]

All I can say is , I hope you have a really good PA and don't play too loud .........good luck !

We do not.

 

[ghiggin1079]

Real suggestion tho, if you have a GC or a better shop nearby see if they do rentals. People sometimes have a soft spot for churches

 

[Wasnex]

I've got a date coming up for my church gig that will take place in a gymnasium, which is used by the church for special occasions like a large holiday service, etc. However, we may be moving to this site on a temporary basis in the future.

I've no idea what the best setup would be, or how to dial in my sound for a large room like this. I'd like any advice or pitfalls I should avoid from anyone who's tried to play a room like this.

The room is a typical gymnasium. The size of a full-size basketball court, cinderblock walls, ceiling perhaps 40 feet high. Audience of 200-250 will be seated in folding chairs in a semicircle facing the band/podium. We're more or less against the side wall of the room (one of the long sides). There won't be a stage.

We will move the regular sound board to the room and use portable speakers on pedestals which are adequate for the room in terms of loudness. No idea how they reproduce bass. We use IEMs in our usual space, but I'm not sure if we will at this location or not.

Instruments used are probably acoustic guitar, a smallish drum kit, a vocalist, sometimes an electric, and me on the bass.

I have a P-Bass and a 5-string active/passive Jazz Bass at my disposal. Most weeks I play through the DI Out on my Genzler Magellan Pre pedal.

I have a Fender Rumble 40 combo which has a DI out and which I suppose I could use as a monitor. But I could buy a larger Rumble or something semi-affordable to use if needed.


So, given this scenario, what should I be thinking about? How can I do the best I can do for sound in a room like this? How would you approach EQ in this sort of a space?

Am I likely to have more success running the bass through the mains or would an amp perhaps work better?

Because this isn't our space (renting it), there won't be an opportunity to try anything out until the day of.


Thanks for any help you could provide.

If it's a typical gym, the first bit of wisdom I will provide is: Accept that it's going to sound awful. Do the best you can, but don't get too ate up about it. The correct fix for the problem is acoustic design and treatment, which is most likely beyond your purview. You have a limited number of band aids at your disposal, rather than any actual fixes.

The primary problem: Gyms typically have a long decay time, so the sound builds up and rumbles around.

Suggestions:
1. Prepare the musicians for what to expect. If you can convince them to keep their stage volume under control it can be very helpful.

2. Use the IEMs and electronic drums if you can...a silent stage doesn't compete with the PA.

3. Do your best to focus the sound where it actually needs to go. In other words keep it off the ceiling, walls, and floor. This goes for the mains, monitors, and any stage amps. Pay attention to how cabs are setup, arrayed, and aimed. Walk the room to confirm the cabs are aimed properly. Best results occur if you can get the cabs relatively high and then aimed down into the audience. Some speakers are designed with an asymmetric dispersion pattern to realize this. Some cabs have tilt adapters built in and there are also pole mount tilt adapters.

4. After the system is setup, you need to tune it. Barring some sort of application like SMAART, you have to use your ears. If you are using subs, try to set them to be equal loudness with the main PA cabs at the crossover frequency. If the system is reasonably flat to begin with, the most important thing you can do is ring the room. This involves increasing the gain so the system feeds back, and the dipping the problem frequencies. All of the mics should be on and set to their normal levels. IMHO it's best to ring each mix independently and the go back and the system with all mixes on. Usually you can dip between 4 and 6 frequencies on each mix before you hit the point of diminishing returns. Each mix may require dipping totally different frequencies. The PA will often sound significantly better after you ring for feedback..

Be careful as it's easy to blow tweeter if you let the feedback get away from you. Also clear the room and wear hearing protection.

5. Be aggressive with HPFs and EQ. Lows in particular tend to rumble around and build up into an incoherent mess. The only thing you can do is reduce how much low end you are pumping into the room. You can also use frequency slotting. The idea is cut and boost different frequency bands for each sound source. The intent is to make sort of an audio Tetris where all sounds fit together, rather than encroaching into each others sonic space.

I typically start with vocal curves that look like this:

This curve is generated with a HPF and 4 bands of parametric EQ. Normally mixers are set up with bass and treble shelving. When possible I switch them to parametric. I use dips to create all of the contours except the gentle peak up high. It will most likely take quite a bit of experimentation for you to figure out where the peaks and dips should be centered, and optimization varies from one vocalist to the next.

6. If you use an amp rather than IEMs, I suggest elevating it to about waist level and tilting it back to aim at your head. The idea is to be able to hear as clearly as possible, so you can keep your amp at the lowest possible volume. Try to convince other players to do the same.

7. Try to convince the drummer to control volume as well. It can be done, although many drummers find it distasteful or even argue it's not possible. Choice of hardware, sticks, and how the drums are tuned are significant factors. In order to play well at a lower volume, the drummer must practice and develop the required finesse.

8. If you have access to drum shields or gobos, use them. The drummer will probably hate them, but they can be very helpful in poor acoustics and when it important to keep the volume down.

 

[s0c9]

If it's a typical gym, the first bit of wisdom I will provide is: Accept that it's going to sound awful. Do the best you can, but don't get too ate up about it. The correct fix for the problem is acoustic design and treatment, which is most likely beyond your purview. You have a limited number of band aids at your disposal, rather than any actual fixes.

The primary problem: Gyms typically have a long decay time, so the sound builds up and rumbles around.

Suggestions:
1. Prepare the musicians for what to expect. If you can convince them to keep their stage volume under control it can be very helpful.

2. Use the IEMs and electronic drums if you can...a silent stage doesn't compete with the PA.

3. Do your best to focus the sound where it actually needs to go. In other words keep it off the ceiling, walls, and floor. This goes for the mains, monitors, and any stage amps. Pay attention to how cabs are setup, arrayed, and aimed. Walk the room to confirm the cabs are aimed properly. Best results occur if you can get the cabs relatively high and then aimed down into the audience. Some speakers are designed with an asymmetric dispersion pattern to realize this. Some cabs have tilt adapters built in and there are also pole mount tilt adapters.

4. After the system is setup, you need to tune it. Barring some sort of application like SMAART, you have to use your ears. If you are using subs, try to set them to be equal loudness with the main PA cabs at the crossover frequency. If the system is reasonably flat to begin with, the most important thing you can do is ring the room. This involves increasing the gain so the system feeds back, and the dipping the problem frequencies. All of the mics should be on and set to their normal levels. IMHO it's best to ring each mix independently and the go back and the system with all mixes on. Usually you can dip between 4 and 6 frequencies on each mix before you hit the point of diminishing returns. Each mix may require dipping totally different frequencies. The PA will often sound significantly better after you ring for feedback..

Be careful as it's easy to blow tweeter if you let the feedback get away from you. Also clear the room and wear hearing protection.

5. Be aggressive with HPFs and EQ. Lows in particular tend to rumble around and build up into an incoherent mess. The only thing you can do is reduce how much low end you are pumping into the room. You can also use frequency slotting. The idea is cut and boost different frequency bands for each sound source. The intent is to make sort of an audio Tetris where all sounds fit together, rather than encroaching into each others sonic space.

I typically start with vocal curves that look like this:
View attachment 7042573
This curve is generated with a HPF and 4 bands of parametric EQ. Normally mixers are set up with bass and treble shelving. When possible I switch them to parametric. I use dips to create all of the contours except the gentle peak up high. It will most likely take quite a bit of experimentation for you to figure out where the peaks and dips should be centered, and optimization varies from one vocalist to the next.

6. If you use an amp rather than IEMs, I suggest elevating it to about waist level and tilting it back to aim at your head. The idea is to be able to hear as clearly as possible, so you can keep your amp at the lowest possible volume. Try to convince other players to do the same.

7. Try to convince the drummer to control volume as well. It can be done, although many drummers find it distasteful or even argue it's not possible. Choice of hardware, sticks, and how the drums are tuned are significant factors. In order to play well at a lower volume, the drummer must practice and develop the required finesse.

8. If you have access to drum shields or gobos, use them. The drummer will probably hate them, but they can be very helpful in poor acoustics and when it important to keep the volume down.

Great advice..
Sadly, 3 thru 8 are probably not happening!
No offense intended to the OP, just real world stuff.

 

[vickerekes]

These tips are generally great. Having been in this scenario for literally decades as bass for worship teams in gyms, assuming that you're using an amp, I believe a most important factor is not to 'square up' your bass rig. Put it at a bit of an angle and tip it back some (doesn't need to be much). Another helpful thing would be to either move about the room listening for the bass (remember there will be people to absorb some of the problem) or have someone with good ears do it for you. The best to you!

 

[turf3]

Gyms suck for music. Go as soft as you can. Preferably all acoustic or as nearly so as possible.