Double Bass Head repair, stability and value

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Hey, all.

I've been toying with the idea of giving French another go, and found a tempting price on a Prochownik.

The problem is that, from what I can see, the head has been broken off and repaired with a spline.

Not having seen the bow in person, I have no idea if the repair is well done, but I have been told that any repairs to the stick reduces the value of the bow by almost half.

Can anyone comment from experience, having lived through and with a similar repair to their stick?

 

[MikeCanada]

Yes, that is definitely a head spline, and yes, you can expect the bow to lose value/price compared to a not broken stick. There is some disagreement on what that should be among bow makers/dealers though. Some believe it should be sold for as little as 10-20% of its unbroken value, some believe it should lose only 20-30%, and plenty believe somewhere in the middle. From a buying/selling perspective, it would likely be relatively fair to both you and the seller if you were looking at 50% of Prochownik's current price. If they are asking significantly more or less than that, you have to decide if you want to go that route.

How long has the bow had the spline for? Typically if it has been in place for a while, it should remain that way. They do occasionally fail, which largely depends on the adhesive used. If you do get a chance to see the bow in person, run a finger over the spline. A good repair is one that matches the head so there is no gap or bump when you encounter the spline, and if it is sticking out or you can see/feel a gap particularly at the bottom of the spline closest to the beak, that could indicate that it has slipped. From the photos it looks good, but you can tell a lot more with the bow in hand. There was a time when splines were done by cutting all the way through the head so the spline went right into the throat and you could see it behind the head. While that practice has largely stopped, it is still an acceptable repair provided the lines are clean and you can't see/feel any gap. It also should not look like the head has been dramatically reshaped or the line down the front of the bow has been altered, which may be difficult to determine if you are not very familiar with Prochownik's work.

As far as playing is concerned, it should play exactly the same as it did before it was broken. Since the repair is not in the playing length of the stick you do not have to worry about inconsistencies in the feel between the repaired and original stick, and the weight of the new material and adhesive should be the same or so marginally different that it is not noticeable. There are some that will tell you the sound will suffer because the head doesn't vibrate the same with a spline but again that is more in your own head than anything else, and if you are evaluating the tone of the bow in its current condition, you can make up your mind as to whether you like it or not.

My advice is to see it in person before buying or to arrange a trial if possible to have a really good look at the repair. If the repair seems solid, the bow feels and sounds good to you, and the price is right, go for it. If you are looking at the investment value of the bow, or not sure if you are going to try French for a few months, hate it, and want to sell the bow again, then be aware that it isn't going to be the easiest sell and you might end of having to price it even lower than what you are buying it for.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

I have proposed a one week trial, and have been advised by a luthier whose judgment and experience I trust (which is certainly not a dig at you!) that it should sell for 1/3 of the price of a new ZP, which is precisely the asking price for this bow.

My primary concern is structural integrity. I have several nice CF bows I can take in to harm's way, so this one will end up a case queen. Worst comes to worst, I live up the road from Susan Lipkins and can run crying to her if the bow reprises its' Anne Boleyn act.

 

[MikeCanada]

1/3 of the price of a new Prochownik is definitely within the acceptable price range for a bow with a head spline. As mentioned, different makers and dealers have different ideas about how much value it should lose as a result. The luthier you have been talking to likely has a better idea of your local market's depreciation, and as a buyer it is always better to look at the worse case possible outcome, because there is a very real possibility that the next buyer will feel that 50% of the price of a new Prochownik at the time is too steep a price. My "fair to both of you" comment was also looking at a seller who has a bow that lost a lot of value and the fact that it should play just as well as an unbroken bow, but the reality is as a buyer the former is not your problem.

If repaired well, the head spline should hold for years to come. The big reason we can't say "guaranteed for xx number of years" is because the adhesives used haven't been around long enough for a large enough sample size of head splines to exist to tell how long they will hold, and because even if correctly repaired, sometimes joints do fail. I would not be overly concerned with the possibility of failure after your initial inspection of the repair, having a second bow in the case is rarely a bad idea regardless to previous repairs on your bows, and just because Sue is up the road from you, the bow will likely stay together for decades. If you need another excuse to pay her a visit, her bows are apparently worth every penny she charges for them.

 

[james condino]

Structurally is is probably fine and in some cases the repair may exceed the strength of the original material but.....Half is a more reaslistic price in my book. The real question is can you live with it???? I tend too pay market value or more for nice clean pieces but any repairs tend to drive me nuts and I always want too fix them or mess with it, so for me that is probably a deal breaker, and we all know you are not shy about getting into projects. As much as I enjoy my nice old pernambuco bow, honestly it sits home 50 weeks a year while my seemingly indestructable Chinese carbon fiber bow has racked up close to 250 rough bar gigs in the last few years and is still going strong....

Does this bow inspire you? Does it seemingly make you play like none of your others and you have a new found inspiration when it is in your hands???? Can you pay for it with cash and have no ill effects on your domestic riddim'? If so, the get it!

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

I can pay for it with cash without disrupting my domestic riddim.

The asking price is 1/3 the price of a new one.

The maker did the repair with epoxy and a hardwood spline 10 years ago.

No clue yet if it's a must-have musical tool, but I really dig ZP's bowmaking philosophy and am excited to have it in my hands.

I'm satisfied. I'll report back when I have it in hand.

 

[LouisF]

Just as a comparison, I had written to Tom Owen a few years ago to see if he could make me a lighter weight bow than the one (of his) I had at the time. He said he was pretty much retired, but had one with a crack, which he had repaired, which he would send me to try. After a week with it, I asked him what he wanted for the bow and he suggested $250. The heavier bow (which I bought in 2007) was $750 then. I've used that bow at Disney Hall and other places ever since.

Louis

PS (I also have a Prochonik bow - and he is a terrific maker). Go for it!

 

[robobass]

All I have to say is that the head looks tiny. There are so many "French" bows out there which are really German bows with french frogs. Look at the heads of of Sartory bows for comparison. They are big. Unless the person in the photo has amazingly huge hands, I would guess that to be a cello bow.

 

[LouisF]

My Prochownik German bow weighs in at 108 grams and is a killer. It's how he make them
Louis

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

All I have to say is that the head looks tiny. There are so many "French" bows out there which are really German bows with french frogs. Look at the heads of of Sartory bows for comparison. They are big. Unless the person in the photo has amazingly huge hands, I would guess that to be a cello bow.

The owner is a bassist, and the stick is clearly stamped "Z. Prochownik." Now my head hurts, thinking about Polish expatriates living in Canada making French bows.

 

[robobass]

The owner is a bassist, and the stick is clearly stamped "Z. Prochownik." Now my head hurts, thinking about Polish expatriates living in Canada making French bows.

Yes, it is something to make the head hurt. I would say that almost all "French" style bows made by Germans or eastern Europeans have not taken Sartory and other French designs into account, and make these bows thin, light, and with wimpy heads.

 

[MikeCanada]

Prochownik's philosophy about both French and German bows seems to be making them light with a camber that really hugs the string. My German bow is 114g, a colleague of mine has two that are 112g and 119g I believe, and I don't think I have seen a German bow over 120g yet. His German heads are small in comparison to some. They have a similar height and foot print, but his design removes a lot of the excess wood/weight from the head which allows for a stick of that weight to be balanced favourably. This is lighter than a lot of German bows on the market, and if you compare Prochownik bows in the 110g range to some of the heavier German bows around 140-150g, (New Dutch School not withstanding) that is a pretty significant change. I am very happy with mine as are all of the German bow players I know with them, although many of us where either looking for a lighter bow or were unexpectedly happy to find one.

His French bows have heads that are not as massive as some of the pedigree French bows I have seen and typically weight between 120-135g, which isn't radically light in comparison. Some old French bow heads are huge and while they often play magnificently, I am not convinced that the size of the head is the reason for that, or at the very least that it is more significant than the camber and graduation of the stick. Many of the well known old French bows are still within a weight range of about 125-145g even with large heads, which potentially says something about the weight and density of the wood they were using. While some people prefer a heavier bow for a variety of reasons, I don't think Prochownik's French bows are really that much of a deviation from the norm to the extent that you could interpret his German bows to be. Balance and a camber that really gets into the string had a lot more influence on how a bow plays, and they can sound huge with a relaxed arm that allows your own weight to transfer into the string instead of a heavy bow. If weight is a significant factor to an individual player I could see that being a larger consideration. I have never felt fatigue in my bow arm after even the longest sessions with my Prochownik though, which I cannot say about other bows I have used.

Modern bows seem to be evolving/changing slightly as we ask more and more of them that players didn't 100+ years ago. While pedigree is still sought after, it is very common for even big symphony players who are playing on pedigree basses to be playing on a modern bow. Similar to basses where we have seen string lengths get closer to 41.5-42" as a standard/norm, capo'ed extensions becoming more popular than machines, and a few other subtle variations becoming more common, bows are changing in little ways as well. I don't think we are going to have another large scale paradigm shift the way we did from the Dragonetti bow to relatively straight to the modern German bow that tends to have more camber than older German bows, or from overhand bows not really existing for bass to the French bow of the last century, but it is exciting to see how little tweaks are still being made.

As far as the head spline, knowing that Prochownik himself performed the repair and that it has been in the bow for 10 years is a big plus. I would be much more concerned about potential slip from a spline that was put in a few months ago than a decade ago and if it looks like it hasn't gone anywhere in that amount of time, you should be about as safe as you are going to get.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Well, it's here, and it's very nice. The repair was beautifully executed and is smooth as glass.

This is my first experience with a professional quality French bow, having concluded after many experiences with crap Chinese and mediocre German-made French bows that Butler was the more comfortable option.

The feel in the hand is excellent and I am able to pull a big sound out of the bass without discomfort, which is a revelation. I do have some tightness in my hand muscles after a steady half-hour of play, but hopefully that will fade in time as the technique becomes familiar. It even plays well with Spiros!

Overall, at first blush I'd put this Prochownik on a par with my early Seifert, which is far and away the best bow I've ever had in my hands.

Tl;Dr Still can't play for **** but that's not the bow's fault.

Many thanks to all for your input.