Help a bass convert pick an amp/pedalboard route

[ellundei]

Hello there! As this is my first post here I'll give a quick intro.
I'm primarily a guitar player who figured out that thin strings, chords and fiddly solos aren't his thing and as I enjoyed playing the rhythim and grooving along. Unfortunately I pidgeonholed myself into prog/thrash metal and don't have interest in picking up other genres on guitar. However I found myself enjoying bass in so many genres and styles that I ordered myself Ibanez EHB1505MS-TSF as I am a big fan of headless instruments and the finish was just amazing. What I wanted an opinion on is what kind of gear route should I take?

My approach with guitar was to plug directly into an amp, a tube amp that is and as soon as I tried to plug a digital unit in between it kind of lost some of the feeling between the picking and the amp/cab. I would still want to keep as minimalistic approach as possible and my initial idea was to get the following Darkglass Alpha Omega 900 and a matching DG212N cab and be done with as I've heard on demos it can pull a wide range of sounds.

The thing is that I would like to join a band and start playing with people and possibly gigging as soon as possible I have a feeling it would be kinda impossible to avoid having a pedalboard if I want to play multiple different genres. The AO900 head would give me option to expand to 2nd cab if needed, pre and post DI outs for FOH and cab sim along with aux in and headphone out for practicing but the EQ is shared between drive and clean channels so I don't know if I could get all of the tones I need out of it.

Second route I could go with is to try to get everything from the pedalboard and then just plug into FX return of some poweramp and call it a day.
Such a fictional pedalboard could be for example (from DG lineup):
- DG Harmonic Booster
- DG Hyper Luminal Compressor
- DG Vintage Ultra (for clean and gritty tones, and with separate cab sim for FOH or monitoring)
- DG Alpha Omega Ultra (for drive tones with its own cab sim out for drive FOH or monitoring)
- and then into whatever amp is available at the place I would play at.
But that still doesn't solve what amp/cab I would play at home, maybe get a Rumble 500 combo to plug into. It would feel redundant to have both Alpha Omega head and the pedal in that case.
I am not tied to Darkglass equipment, I'm just familiar with it's sound and features.
I also liked the Mesa Boogie D800+, ToneHammer 700 (unsure if that would give me the versatility needed).

I have a guitar FRFR (I'm saying guitar FRFR because it's actually GFR, flat in most frequencies but rolls off highs similar to guitar cab) and Fractal Audio FM3 but so far I wasn't at all impressed with the tones I got from that setup and I don't think the speaker is intended to handle bass frequencies. I also have Seymour Duncan Powerstage 170 which I wanted to use with FM3 with my guitar into cab but I found out that even when I simulate correct cab impedance the sound and feeling are extremely flat compared to the real thing. So I also doubt that using a processor or pedalboard into PS170 into bass cab would give me any better results.
That kinda gave me a bit sour taste of class D poweramps.

I'm kinda oblivious to how the bass rigs actually work since in guitar world the 'best possible scenario' is to have 412 cab powered by high powered tube amp and running analog pedals into it which I can say is true, as I've tried the FM3 and FRFR route (3 different FRFRs), also poweramp into multiple cabs, tube amp into multiple different 1x12 cabs but I ended up just running the 'tried and true' 100W amp into 412 cab for guitar. I see that bass community is a lot more progressive in that sense and there seem to be a lot more viable options going on but I'm still wondering is there a 'de facto' bass rig type that is the 'tried and true'? Is stacking smaller cabs more effective with bass gear than with guitar gear? As I've tried stacking 2 112 cabs and it just sounds like two small boxy speakers and not even close to 212 cab.
My end goal would be to have something that isn't gonna break my back, so as light and simple as possible but still have the real punch and feeling.

 

[Al Kraft]

Honestly, I would suggest that you try to go somewhere where you can try out some bass amps, cabs, and perhaps even combos. There's no "one size fits all" answer to cover every bass playing situation (even for the same bass player) that I'm aware of. Many people own a rig with the versatility to handle most everything we usually play and some folks have multiple bases, amps, cabs, and/or effects boards to cover the waterfront.

The bass world offers you a multitude of possibilities where size and weight are no longer a hard equipment to get a big, full, solid bass sound - don't get hung up on speaker sizes and/or huge gear, you may be quite surprised. We could all tell you about our favorite stuff, but you likely already know the typical brands and even named a few. If you've already listened to some brands and are getting the sense that one or two seem to be appealing, you may want to ask folks who play what you think you'll be playing (style of music and type of venue) to offer their insights.

I know that wasn't what you asked for exactly, but I hope it's a more useful starting point than trying to convince you to own what I play.

 

[Dave W]

I second that. I’d do some more reading on here, there are a lot of really good options out there.

Darkglass always sounds like Darkglass to me. If that’s they sound you’re going for, great! They make very nice stuff, but I wouldn’t call it particularly versatile even if that ruffles some feather around here.

 

[ellundei]

While I do respect your replies I think this diverged more into what exact brand I should get rather than what I was initially interested in finding out.
What I thought is that someone would come and tell me, no I tried this approach and its bad because of X and Y, but universally Z works for most. Before I go into extremes like bi-amping 30kg tube amps with 2x 810 cabs like a crazy person. What I personally figured out is that 412 with 100W amp works just as well and even better than small combo for quiet home practice in guitar world as the master volume seems to be easier to control on higher power amps that I had. And that would be my advice if guitar player asked me, yeah just go for big amp and cab if you like the sound, its just more inspiring to play and you don't have to have 2 rigs.

Yeah, DG gear might not be too versatile, that also gives me a bit more insight, but does that mean I would be way better off running a dirt pedal into a solid clean platform like idk, a ToneHammer? I mentioned Alpha Omega because I love how it's drive sounds and I guessed the clean was transparent enough and the EQ on it would do the trick for versatility.

What is tricky is that locally I have very few options and and the musicians that I do know are guitarists so I can't just pop into someones garage and check out pedalboards and amps as I please.

 

[Smurf-o-Deth]

What's best will depend on what your use case scenario(s) is (are). I use a clean, neutral head and derive my tones from my pedalboard, with the goal being to get a consistent tone no matter what I do (headphone practice, record from the DI, send to an amp, et cetera). You'll probably get a lot of amp-centric answers in this forum (understandably), so you might want to pop over to the effects forum for some less-traditional perspectives (where folks like me tend to hang out).

 

[Dave W]

While I do respect your replies I think this diverged more into what exact brand I should get rather than what I was initially interested in finding out.
What I thought is that someone would come and tell me, no I tried this approach and its bad because of X and Y, but universally Z works for most.

Unfortunately there is no universal approach. It completely depends on your situation.

Very generally speaking: You mentioned metal so you're going to want a larger rig rather than a smaller one. More speakers and a higher wattage amp will be better heard than a 1X10 combo. Boost your mids and cut the lows, you'll waste less wattage trying to push big lows and be better heard in the mix pushing the mids anyways. It doesn't always sound pretty in a solo situation but it doesn't need to. Are you going to have PA support at venues you'll be playing? If so, you'll need a good DI and your amp becomes nothing more than a stage monitor.

Cabinets: I'd be looking at a minimum of a 2X12 or (2) 1X12's...or a 4X10 or (2) 2X10's...or a 2X15 or (2) 1X15's. See a pattern? If you're going to be carrying the entire venue with your rig you might need more than that with a loud metal band. You can go with 1 big cabinet (like an 8X10) or a modular approach with multiple smaller cabs. They make fairly light large cabs these days but you're going to pay a premium to get them. GO modular and you can leave one cab at home for practicing and one cab at the rehearsal space for band stuff...then take both to the gig.

Amps: Amps are all over the place. I'd say go for a minimum of 500w for a solid state or class D amp. More wattage wouldn't be bad either, personally I'd go for no less than 800 watts. Exceptions would be something like a GK 800RB, which is "only" 300 watts but it a very loud 300 watts. Lots of thrash guys used them. A "big" tube amp would be 300 watts, like an SVT. You mentioned you wanted something light so that's probably out as they weigh something like 85 pounds.

A V4B is a lighter option at closer to 40 pounds, but it's 100 watts and that may or may not be enough depending on the sound your going for. It won't have a ton of clean headroom so you'll probably always have a dirty sound.

Effects: Since you are relatively new to bass I would suggest concentrating on getting a great tone with just your bass/amp/cab first, then add in effects to get the specific sounds you can't get with that alone. I'm saying this just so you can get a fundamentally good sound with as little as possible, in case you have a problem at a gig where you lose the board (bad cable, power issues, etc.) and can't get it fixed in time. I use a board at every gig and have only had a handful of issues over years and years of heavily gigging, but they do come up from time to time. Lots of guys do use their boards as their primary tone shaping system, so go with whatever approach you prefer. There is no right or wrong answer.

 

[Redbrangus]

Random thoughts, in no particular order:

Try to shed any preconceptions you've picked up while treading the guitar path -- there is very little correlation in the two experiences. I mention this because of statements like "As I've tried stacking 2 112 cabs and it just sounds like two small boxy speakers and not even close to 212 cab." Don't let that experience lead you to the conclusion that will be the case with all 2 x 112 cabs. That said, I tend to agree with some of your prior experience; I have yet to hear any thing that claimed to be "FRFR" that had enough nutz to provide bass amplification for a band with a drum set playing modern popular music.

You will need more power than you're used to needing with the guitar -- a lot more. I would think a 500 watt amp would be the minimum you would want -- 800 would be better. And that needs to be legitimate, RMS power, not some inflated marketing number, like music power. And you need a cab or cabs capable of dissipating that much power; that almost has to mean multiple drivers. 2 x 210, 2 x 112, 2 x 115, 212 or 215 cabs. Note that speakers tend to use inflated numbers, i.e., that 800-watt rated cab might only safely handle 400 watts RMS.

I wouldn't worry too much about pedals at this point -- try to get as much of the sound you like with the amp and speakers... and how you play, of course. That's more important to your sound than any piece of gear. Your ideas of what you want your sound to be and what works in a band setting are likely to evolve as you play more, and you're also likely to come to a better understanding of how to get where you're trying to go. My personal opinion -- not necessarily popular in this venue -- is that a lot of the subtleties and variations of timbre that folks put so much effort into are lost in the context of a band playing live.

If you are going to focus in on just one brand, it seems a lot of bass players playing in a lot of different styles are pretty happy with their Mesa Subway series gear.

 

[ellundei]

Alright, alright, alright, this is some amazing info! Thanks! Yeah the route I would go is either 210 or 212 neo cab, under 20kg (44 pounds) as not to play around with a possible hernia and from the info I got around here seems like I really won't need anything bigger than that.
As far as amp is concerned I think the only thing that would be acceptable would be a class D amp as I've had enough of moving my guitar tube amps around. Regarding the wattage is there a big difference between 500W and 800W heads in terms of how far you need to set the master volume/output volume pot? I'm mostly going to be playing at home/practicing it would suck if I got 800/900W head and it was uncontrollable at low volumes. My experience with tube heads is that the volume comes on very abruptly and then you have to pray that moving the pot by 1mm isn't going to cause stadium volumes.

If I were to go the route of trying to get "my" baseline tone with just a bass and an amp/cab what would be suggested heads to look at? In these times I just see everyone pushing their own 'I got this amp for free but I'm not biased at all' reviews, so I don't know what brands or specific heads would be hidden gems or just plain good?
What I'd be looking at is something that can do a wide variety of genres, from motown to funk to metal.
With the exception of what you guys said, Mesa Subway, is there something else that seems to be tone idiot proof?
I mean what I can ultimately do is just go with Fender Rumble 500 combo and call it a day, but I have a feeling I'd be looking at new gear pretty soon afterwards and I find it a PITA to sell gear.

And maybe the more important question is compared to the pedalboard route where I get the most of tone out of bass and pedals, what would I do then if I can't carry the amp/cab to the gig or if there was already a setup that I need to use? And is having both pre and post DI out on amp actually useful or important of a feature? Same question for 2 speaker outs? I've seen cabs with what seems like parallel out, which isn't too common on guitar amps, so given that it's more common on bass cabs, how important is to have 2 speaker outs on the amp itself?

 

[Dave W]

I hope all of this helps in some way:

Yeah the route I would go is either 210 or 212 neo cab, under 20kg (44 pounds) as not to play around with a possible hernia and from the info I got around here seems like I really won't need anything bigger than that.

Playing a live gig in a metal band without PA support, you're definitely going to need more than a 2X10. At home you'll be fine...

Regarding the wattage is there a big difference between 500W and 800W heads in terms of how far you need to set the master volume/output volume pot? I'm mostly going to be playing at home/practicing it would suck if I got 800/900W head and it was uncontrollable at low volumes. My experience with tube heads is that the volume comes on very abruptly and then you have to pray that moving the pot by 1mm isn't going to cause stadium volumes.

You'll have more clean headroom, just like a guitar amp. For example going from a 5w Champ to an 85w Twin, the Twin will be a lot louder before breakup. The thing is, most SS or hybrid amps don't have a pleasing distorted sound once you reach the end of whatever headroom you do have. Unlike a guitar tube amp where you're trying to make it distort.

Bass amps, especially non tube amps, don't change their tone too much from a low volume to higher volume. Certain amps have a better master than others but you'll usually be fine at low volume one way or another.

If I were to go the route of trying to get "my" baseline tone with just a bass and an amp/cab what would be suggested heads to look at? In these times I just see everyone pushing their own 'I got this amp for free but I'm not biased at all' reviews, so I don't know what brands or specific heads would be hidden gems or just plain good?
What I'd be looking at is something that can do a wide variety of genres, from motown to funk to metal.
With the exception of what you guys said, Mesa Subway, is there something else that seems to be tone idiot proof?
I mean what I can ultimately do is just go with Fender Rumble 500 combo and call it a day, but I have a feeling I'd be looking at new gear pretty soon afterwards and I find it a PITA to sell gear.

Lots of good stuff out there. Aguilar, Ampeg, Darkglass, Gallien Krueger, Mesa and tons of boutique amps to look at.

And maybe the more important question is compared to the pedalboard route where I get the most of tone out of bass and pedals, what would I do then if I can't carry the amp/cab to the gig or if there was already a setup that I need to use? And is having both pre and post DI out on amp actually useful or important of a feature?

Just keep in mind that when you're playing a gig with a sound guy, getting "your sound" may or may not happen. It's totally up to the sound guy on what the audience hears. If he's not familiar with your sound to begin with well...
When using backline equipment you're generally stuck with figuring out how to make it work for you. You can bring along a better DI and give that to the sound guy, so at least you're giving him the best possible signal to work with.
I think you'll find that the sound guy is going to prefer a pre EQ DI signal, but it's usually a case by case basis. He knows how to EQ his room. If you're giving him an EQ'd signal, it may make his job harder.

Same question for 2 speaker outs? I've seen cabs with what seems like parallel out, which isn't too common on guitar amps, so given that it's more common on bass cabs, how important is to have 2 speaker outs on the amp itself?

If the amp has a minimum load of 4 ohms, whether it's got 1 output or 2 outputs it will only ever be able to power 4 ohms. If you hook up an 8 ohm cab you'll get roughly half the wattage pushed to the cab. If you hook up a 2 ohm cab...BOOM! Magic smoke...

As long as you can connect the cab(s) you have to the amp, you're all good. If you're using 2 cabs but your amp only has 1 output, 1 of your cabs will need to have a parallel out so you can actually use both cabs.

 

[ellundei]

Yeah this helps a lot, thank you. Honestly, I even if I end up playing metal gigs I think I won't be playing any subgenre that needs to be that loud, as those usually have dull basslines that just follow guitars and I'm not interested in that at all.

Basically I understood that I should rely mostly on my fingers/playing and bass preamp to get the most of the tone as possible which totally makes sense if I were to DI out to console.

I've been looking at some tone demos/reviews and I have a feeling that a lot of the amps and preamps seem to sound VERY similar with the EQ set flat, is it then mostly the feel and different frequency centers or I'm just not used to listening to bass? Kinda gives me the impression I should be looking at features a lot more than the sound (for example if it has the HPF, multiple sweepable mid bands or just 1, eq curve pot, bright switches and so on)