Help with playing behind the Beat

edencab

edencab

Aug 14, 2013
4,436
23,050
5,231
Toronto, On
www.youtube.com
#1
hi all....our (very good) drummer has asked /suggested I try to play behind the beat on one of our 12 bar blues songs...I guess my brain & fingers have spent their whole lives trying to play on the beat to keep up, hit the changes and endings etc, that I can't seem to figure it out. I now what he means, but as soon as I try, I can tell he doesn't think I have it.

any suggestions or video lessons that might help?

thanks
 
Last edited:
#3
There's really only one thing to do: play along to blues songs and try to make your bass sound EXACTLY like the recording. Ask your drummer to make you a playlist of songs with the feel he's looking for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Big Shrek
#4
edencab said:
hi all....our (very good) drummer has asked /suggested I try to play behind the beat on one of our 12 bar blues songs...I guess my brain & fingers have spend their whole lives trying to play on the beat to keep up, hit the changes and endings etc, that I can't seem to figure it out. I now what he means, but as soon as I try, I can tell he doesn't think I have it.

any suggestions or video lessons that might help?

thanks
Click to expand...
Find a new drummer- just kidding.

I think it is important to feel your way behind or on top of the beat to create musical tension. Best thing I can think of to teach this is to practice with a metronome and playing just after the click. I mean like right behind it. Start with quarter notes and work your way up. Of course, do the opposite to practice staying on top. it should not take long to get a good grip on finding different places to feel the pocket.
 
#5
Playing behind the beat especially in blues is usually done in phrasing or soloing. The timing is laid back in a swing sort of way, but correlates with the grove. In other words, the grove is behind in the beat, but it flows with the grove. And it's done mostly to phrase or solo like in jazz bass styles. The grove is latent and some times is not on time, but it falls in time with the grove at specific points in the melody.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rich Fiscus, Fergie Fulton, Lvjoebass and 1 other person
#7
  • Like
Reactions: Whousedtoplay
#8
IMO: it's a feel. you have to hear it and you have to be 'moved' by it to practice it. i agree that you should ask your drummer for his references, but what i think you're looking for is a "feel." if your drummer can play that feel...do what he does (but as a bass player).

giving it a name ("behind the beat") probably makes you want to think about something instead of feeling something.

it's not an academic exercise. just imitate someone who 'has it' until you can own-it/command-it for yourself.

good luck! :thumbsup:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lvjoebass, andruca, Ewo and 3 others
#9
joebar said:
I naturally play behind the beat and have never been asked to change it.
Not sure if I could actually
Click to expand...

Playing "behind the beat" is a sign of a relaxed, mature, advanced bass player.
It clearly says, "Check this phrasing, check my articulation, check my tone, timbre." "Oh, yeah, I know how to rhythmically get my bass fill/run across".
It's like a powerful truck driving amid some hurricane winds without losing control.
 
  • Like
Reactions: joebar and Son of Wobble
#10
Whousedtoplay said:
I think we are using the term, "feel" in some confusing way when we are talking about playing behind/in front of the beat.
We say, "it's a shuffle feel" which has nothing to do with playing behind the beat notion.
I'd rather use the term, "micro-timing".
Click to expand...
micro-timing? how would you teach that? probably by demonstrating...right?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Whousedtoplay
#13
Whousedtoplay said:
How do you teach “feel”?
Click to expand...
That's a topic near & dear to my heart. In my bass-playing career, I've struggled between always hearing "YOU CAN'T TEACH FEEL" and the fact that my first and most important instructor showed me an exercise that turned out to put me on the right path. My sense of timing was awful - I mean TERRIBLE. He'd set up a cowbell tone on the drum machine, and when I tried to hit the notes right on the head with my bass at, say, 80 bpm or something, he'd end up telling me "my overall was passable, but my individual notes were all over the map".

So he finally came up with this - we sat in his studio with the lights out, and only a single candle illuminating the room. He'd sit across from me while I had my bass in hand while seated. The drum machine was set for 80 (or was it 72? to emulate the human heartbeat). He'd have me try to hit the notes right on top of the head - for like 20 minutes. After a while it got hypnotic, especially with the single candle thing going on.

Once I started eliminating the "over-thinking" from the equation (I think it took me almost a half hour - I can't remember; it was a long time ago) and moving into "animal heartbeat" state of mind, then he told me to start ignoring the 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 beats and just come down (with a bass note - any bass note) on the 1. The drum machine was set to play the 1 noticeably louder than the rest of the beats... so he just had me come down on the 1, and drop out until it was time for the 1 again. That set up a lot of silence on my part except for the drum machine - but the previous half hour of hitting all 8 beats had put me in such a self-hypnotic state that the hypnotic thing kind of persisted when he asked me to ONLY play on the drum machine's "beat #1". So instead of "anxious anticipation" waiting for the 1 to come around again, I started internalizing the subdivisions into something palpable and tangible - I was actually starting to feel it instead of "trying too hard". After a while I found that I could just calm down and quit anticipating anxiously, and just play the 1 bass note at the right time.

Mind you, I probably wasn't very good at the time, but my instructor's exercise set up a whole new thing inside me that wasn't there before. Now, 25 or more years later, I think I'm starting to get it pretty good.

But playing behind the beat is also a "feel" thing, and I find although it's not impossible for me, I don't think I'm very good at it. Maybe I need to find a funk band!
 
  • Like
Reactions: ajkula66, 40Hz, Maureen M and 3 others
#17
Whousedtoplay said:
I think there’s a direct link between practicing a line, riff at a slow/slower tempo and being comfortably relaxed while playing the same on stage.
Let’s say, I have a bass riff with original 114BPM tempo.
At first, practicing the same at 50BPM it sounds a little bit unnatural, but...
The longer I play at that slow tempo, the more “natural” it starts to sound to me.
Now, I increase tempo a little bit.
Once again, at first I want to say “Please don’t rush me” but after playing samo-samo numerous times, I get accustomed to that new-tempo articulation.
Let’s say, I stop increasing tempo at 110BPM (just shy of the original 114BPM) and solidify my feel of that bass riff. I feel good the way my riff sounds.
Next.
On stage, the drummer starts counting at 114BPM.
I feel being rushed but must go with that tempo, and my bass line sounds more like “playing behind the beat” due to that “mental” tempo conflict.
Click to expand...

sure. my "feel" comments were meant for the OP who indicated (if i read correctly) that the drummer wanted him to 'stylize', more or less, his playing (play behind the beat). apparently: i have misinterpreted. however, my jazz playing (for decades, now) has given me the experience/ability of being able to play "behind," on top, or in front of the beat depending on the goal at hand. sometimes it's a matter of manipulating tempo. sometimes it's just an interpretation of style (e.g., shuffle, swing, vs. say, bebop).

it's a "feel" for me. YMMV.

OP: good luck with your drummer! :thumbsup:
 
  • Like
Reactions: edencab and Whousedtoplay
#18
I always had the luxury of playing with a phenomenal drummer growing up. I suppose this may have had something to do with my ability to lock it in and groove.
I have the ability to sense the smallest timing issue in drummers; I can tell when they are on the verge of rushing or dragging- even before they actually start doing it. I'm always bringing it up to them and it tends to irritate them.
I think it's because I'm internally wired to want to set up the groove and lay back behind the beat, and am expecting my drummer to do the same. It rarely ever happens though.
It seems some people can't internalize tempo, yet they can clap their hands on the beat and stomp their foot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Whousedtoplay
#19
OP, in addition to the conceptual stuff mentioned above, maybe it will help to listen to some musical illustrations as a way of intuiting the distinction between playing on top of the beat, and behind it.

There are tons of examples, but this comes to mind:

For on top of the beat, pick a Periphery tune from when Nolly was in the band and note where the bass is in relation to the kick.

For behind the beat, pick a D'Angelo tune with Pino on bass. _Charade_ comes to mind, the intro in particular.

Keep in mind it's a feel thing--meaning the lag (in playing behind the beat) is smaller than the smallest rhythmic subdivision you can notate. It comes down to whether it _feels_ like the bass is maintaining the pulse, or the pulse is dragging the bass along.

Hope that might be of some help!
 
  • Like
Reactions: joebar and Whousedtoplay
#20
cazclocker said:
That's a topic near & dear to my heart. In my bass-playing career, I've struggled between always hearing "YOU CAN'T TEACH FEEL" and the fact that my first and most important instructor showed me an exercise that turned out to put me on the right path. My sense of timing was awful - I mean TERRIBLE. He'd set up a cowbell tone on the drum machine, and when I tried to hit the notes right on the head with my bass at, say, 80 bpm or something, he'd end up telling me "my overall was passable, but my individual notes were all over the map".

So he finally came up with this - we sat in his studio with the lights out, and only a single candle illuminating the room. He'd sit across from me while I had my bass in hand while seated. The drum machine was set for 80 (or was it 72? to emulate the human heartbeat). He'd have me try to hit the notes right on top of the head - for like 20 minutes. After a while it got hypnotic, especially with the single candle thing going on.

Once I started eliminating the "over-thinking" from the equation (I think it took me almost a half hour - I can't remember; it was a long time ago) and moving into "animal heartbeat" state of mind, then he told me to start ignoring the 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 beats and just come down (with a bass note - any bass note) on the 1. The drum machine was set to play the 1 noticeably louder than the rest of the beats... so he just had me come down on the 1, and drop out until it was time for the 1 again. That set up a lot of silence on my part except for the drum machine - but the previous half hour of hitting all 8 beats had put me in such a self-hypnotic state that the hypnotic thing kind of persisted when he asked me to ONLY play on the drum machine's "beat #1". So instead of "anxious anticipation" waiting for the 1 to come around again, I started internalizing the subdivisions into something palpable and tangible - I was actually starting to feel it instead of "trying too hard". After a while I found that I could just calm down and quit anticipating anxiously, and just play the 1 bass note at the right time.

Mind you, I probably wasn't very good at the time, but my instructor's exercise set up a whole new thing inside me that wasn't there before. Now, 25 or more years later, I think I'm starting to get it pretty good.

But playing behind the beat is also a "feel" thing, and I find although it's not impossible for me, I don't think I'm very good at it. Maybe I need to find a funk band!
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to share this - I'm going to try it tonight.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cazclocker
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back