Double Bass Help with volume & "Growl"

[Lenny Nichols]

I recently found and bought an old German Bass. Everyone's best guess seems to be "old German" and possibly Juzek from sometime between 1880 and 1920(ish). Gamba style bout. The only label inside is a repair label with Germany on it. Obviously restored with fingerboard, hatpeg tuners, endpin and possibly bridge replaced. Nice work with cleats to repair cracks. The only original parts seem to be the body, neck and scroll.

This is one of the five best sounding basses I have ever played. All the others were way out of my price range. ($40K+). When I brought the bass home for trial, it had Obligato Orchestra Strings on it. It was loud, had a very prominent growl and great sustain. I had the shop install D'Addarrio Helicore Pizzicato strings before I purchased it. It was still wonderfully loud, had the same prominent growl and sustain. Then I decided that I wanted strings that were a little easier to bow, so I installed a set of Pirastro Perpetual Strings with the Stark D & G. I did nothing else. The sound was awful. Less loud, less sustain, and little to no growl. It was not really "awful." It sounded more like many of the other basses that I have played. Ok, so I thought the bass just didn't like the Perpetuals. I reinstalled the D'Addarrio Helicore Pizzicato strings, and they also had lost the volume, sustain and growl.

I figured I must have moved something, but the bridge looked fine and I could not see any changed placement of the sound post. So I took it to an out of town luthier that I trust. He installed a new standard set of Obligato 3/4 Orchestral Gauge of strings and adjusted the bridge and sound post. His shop was noisy, so I brought it home and found that while it was moderately improved, it was not the sound of the Obligatos or Helicore Pizzicato strings that I had before I made the initial string change. Then as a test I installed a Spirocore Red D string, since the Obligato D sounded weaker than the rest. Still no improvement. I figured if anything would give me volume, growl and sustain, it would be a Spiro Red.

So what could I have possibly done? The only things I can think of that could have moved are the bridge and sound post. The bass feels stiffer and it does not seem to be vibrating like it did before the string change. The sound post did NOT drop and I "think" it did not move. I also think the bridge did not move. I have not noticed any drops or bulges in the top or back of the bass. I have not noticed any rattles.

Any ideas how I can get my volume, growl and sustain back? Or questions I should ask my luthier?

Thanks, Lenny Nichols

 

[Francois Blais]

Detune the strings to see if more or less tension has a positive or negative effect.

 

[Lenny Nichols]

Oohhh… I knew that. I wish I had thought of it, though. Thanks! I will try it when I visit the luthier shop later this week.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

No such animal as a pre-1929 Juzek. The problem could be humidity. It’s a flatback, right?

 

[Lenny Nichols]

Thanks. I do not know much about Juzeks, except that one of them was one of the five best sounding basses I have played. My bass has a carved, rounded back. I suppose it could be humidity, but from what I was told, it has been in a violin shop Austin,TX for 10-15 years, and my house is in the same area. I keep my humidity between 40-50%.

 

[bassically_eli]

Hmmm, I was also gonna say change in environmental conditions. Maybe those new Obligatos will settle in after a day or two.

 

[Lenny Nichols]

Maybe… we’ll see. Thanks

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

The heavier D&G strings may be choking the bass.

 

[Lenny Nichols]

Thanks, but the heavier D and G strings only stayed in place for a few minutes.

 

[Up and Away]

If the bridge is in the right location I wonder if it is in the correct orientation to the bass vertically, ie 90 degrees.
I had the same situation after I changed strings on my Shen SB 100 and other basses(yes, I know it's not like the bass in question here) but just a tiny correction in the vertical position made a big difference in the sound, the feet of the bridge make full contact with the top. Of course the bridge can move when you are tuning and change how it sits on the bass, I check mine frequently and am amazed how much it moves and how that affects the sound, especially volume.
I'm no expert but getting the bridge set up right really changed my bass and that is the first thing I check if my bass doesn't sound "normal".
Like some other players I have a home made gauge made from very stiff wire(some use wood) that I use to check the distance from the end of the finger board to the face of the bridge so I can quickly check the position and adjust if necessary.

 

[Lenny Nichols]

I saw nothing tilted or out of place with the bridge. Luthier is going to play with the bridge and sound post this week. Thanks!

 

[CaseyVancouver]

‘Any ideas how I can get my volume, growl and sustain back?‘

You may not like what I have to say.
Try not to interpret this as condescending. I am sure you know your way around the bass well.

Put the strings back that were so good in the beginning. Obligato or Helicore.

Once the earlier strings are on …LEAVE EVERYTHING ALONE and play the thing. For a long time.
Like a month or two. Let yourself figure out how to make you happy with your new bass, and it happy with you.

Don’t take it to a luthier for a bunch of fiddling. Luthiers have many hilarious stories of nervous violinists, with heavy upcoming auditions or solo concerts, that come to them for sound post and bridge changes etc. The instrument often needs nothing, but changes happen for money to make the player happy. One prominent luthier interviewed actually said this kind of business paid for his summer vacation home (!)

My thinking is the problem actually is you getting used to your new bass, that you paid good money for. We all have done it, overthought too much about a new instrument. Play the bass with the strings that sounded so good in the beginning and wrap your head around the sound for a month or more.

Then go the luthier & changes route if you can’t live with it.

If most of your gigging is pizz don’t sweat the bow.

 

[ctxbass]

Lenny,
Did you say that the bass had Obligatos when you first brought it home and that it now has a new set of Obligatos?
It has been years, but I remember putting on a new set of Obligatos and it took quite some time for them to come to their full tension as the core stretched. The interaction with the bass will not yet be the same as the old set. This is not as much of an issue with steel core strings but something gut players deal with all the time.

 

[Lenny Nichols]

The bass is with the luthier. I was not able to pick it up this past weekend. It will probably be the first week of November before I have a chance to pick it up. I will report on what he/we find then.

Thanks, Lenny

 

[Lenny Nichols]

I picked up the bass from the luthier in Arlington on Saturday. It is "better," but still does not have the growl that it once did. It actually sounds very good; just not precisely how I want it. I need to play it for a while and see how things play in. He cut and fitted a new 3 tree bridge. The old bridge showed some signs of warping, had a tiny crack in it and the adjuster threads were loose enough that the top of the bridge was moving.

He said this is the most sensitive bass he has worked with for sound post adjustments. The smallest moves make big differences. I will play it for a few weeks and see how it goes. He called me after my two hour visit and said we might want to experiment with different strings (used strings that both he and I have). The new Obligatos that we put on it were not "doing it" for either of us. We put on a lightly used set of Spirocore mittels (red wraps).

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

LEAVE EVERYTHING ALONE and play the thing. For a long time.
Like a month or two. Let yourself figure out how to make you happy with your new bass, and it happy with you.

My thinking is the problem actually is you getting used to your new bass, that you paid good money for. We all have done it, overthought too much about a new instrument. Play the bass with the strings that sounded so good in the beginning and wrap your head around the sound for a month or more.
If most of your gigging is pizz don’t sweat the bow.

^^^This. Whether the belief is that we adjust to our basses, or that they acclimate to us, it's 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Acclimation happens, is all that matters. I've been playing the same bass with the same strings for 15 years. It's a relationship like any other. Learn to love the one you're with.

 

[Lenny Nichols]

Thanks, Chris. That is my plan; play it as is, and as much as possible for the next few months. But I have to say, I played it for a 4-5 months after I got it and loved everything about it except that the Helicore Pizzicato strings were not great for bowing. I put Perpetuals on it and the sustain & growl were gone. I put the Helicore Pizz back on about 20 minutes later and the sustain & growl was still gone. It now has a new bridge and some lightly used Spirocore reds on it. I will leave it alone and just play it for a few months. Thanks!!

 

[GretschWretch]

^^^This. Whether the belief is that we adjust to our basses, or that they acclimate to us, it's 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Acclimation happens, is all that matters. I've been playing the same bass with the same strings for 15 years. It's a relationship like any other. Learn to love the one you're with.

Just like CSN&Y?