Double Bass Hole in the Heart (5 String) Double Bass idea.

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Oct 12, 2020
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So while 5 string Double Basses are becoming more common due to the improvements they made in the setup, I figured out a really cool way we could make the Lower notes speak more clearly is w/ a "Hole in the Heart Surgery". I got that idea from a "Hole in the Heart Violin to Viola Conversion" developed by Heikki Puukko and Pentii Nevalainen in Finland. It revolutionized teaching the Viola to Smaller kids by allowing Smaller Violas to sound "Beefier" & also allowed the possibility of Converting Violins into Violas by restringing them as Violas & using a "Hole in the Heart Surgery". It's based on an instrument called the "Crwth" in which the 2 Bridge feet are different Lengths. The Short Treble Bridge foot rests on the soundboard, & the Long Bass Bridge foot that goes down the Bass Sound Hole & rests directly on the Back. The Hole in the heart Violin to Viola Conversion (as will the Hole in the Heart Double Bass) does the same thing but in an inverted manner, the Bass Bridge foot rests on the soundboard, the Treble bridge foot is connected to the soundpost, it goes down the hole & rests directly on the back.

Fractional sized instruments (both Small Violins & Small Violas) just don't have enough air volume to resonate under lower tension strings without sounding weak & "tinny". Essentially, the function of the soundboard, between the action of the treble bridge foot and the soundpost is bypassed, this has the effect of reducing the amplitude of higher frequency resonances, and gives the lower registers greater sonority, a quality that was previously impossible with the much smaller student violas.

So this is a Primavera 3/4 Size Student Violin that was converted into a 13 inch Viola via hole-in-the-heart surgery & stringing it w/ D'addario Ascente Extra Short Scale Medium Tension Viola Strings (A410 XSM)
upload_2024-3-25_21-42-19.jpeg

According to this chart, here's how the instrument sounded before the surgery
upload_2024-3-25_22-0-40.jpeg

And here's what it sounds like after the surgery.
upload_2024-3-25_22-1-13.jpeg


It's great how this technique works w/ Violin & Viola, why not apply that to Double Bass (especially 5 string Double Bass)? What we'd do is take a Double Bass, then we drill a hole that's the size of the soundpost below the Treble Bridge foot, connect the Treble Bridge foot to the soundpost, so that it would go down the hole & rest directly on the back & have the Higher Frequencies transmitted to the back, which would then give the Lower Registers a greater sonority. It'll also reduce the string downward force by Half which will eliminate soundpost cracks.
 
It'll also reduce the string downward force by Half which will eliminate soundpost cracks.

This reminds me of something a veterinarian once told me, trying to talk me into neutering my little puppy dog at their clinic. "Castration helps reduce chances of testicular cancer." I'm sorry, there may be plenty of valid reasons for spaying pets, but that reason is totally off the wall -- like maybe we all should be neutered to avoid reproductive cancers???

Similarly, drilling a hole in the top of a double bass to avoid soundpost cracks is really off the wall -- why don't we just do without a top altogether and avoid all top cracks???

I think I'll watch and consider this topic for a while -- 18 years or so -- before responding more.
 
I just want to chime in and say I have a serious distain for meaningless graphs like this. Oscar, if you find a five string bass and decide to do this modification, please let us know how it works out for you, but I wouldn’t advise it, tbh. Seems like a really quick way to ruin a bass. “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it?”
 
An interesting theory, but what happens if the soundpost must be moved?

It couldn't be and generally, directly under the bridge foot is not where we seem to collectively have our sound posts placed.

I would also be concerned about stability. I dig in hard and I think it would have to be pinned to keep me from pulling it over or around. Childrens violas wouldn't likely see that much pressure.

Finally, while I know that this is not the headline in this posit, but are 5 string doublebasses really becoming more common? They've always existed and have always been more common in Europe than the US for some reason. Is there a recent trend that I've slept on?

I've seen and played exactly one in the wild and it was fun for a second, but not something I would want. The guy who owned it, in his own words said it wasn't useful pizzicato. I know PW (RIP) made it work, but I never listen to The Oscar Peterson Trio and think "if only Ray Brown had lower notes"

Symphony bassists beyond a certain point need to extend their range in that direction, but aside from that the only people who ever seem to express interest seem to be BGist. The same bunch who seem to think that they need Rotosound or DR doublebass strings and whatever effects and amp brands work for them.
 
Buy a bass, convert it if you can find a willing/competent (the two are probably mutually exclusive) luthier, and let us know how it goes. Be sure to have enough saved up to fix the damage caused by this ridiculous experiment.
 
What if we could just purchase a 5 String Double Bass, use the Hole-in-the-Heart conversion on the soundboard, & then play it so we could hear the difference.

Can you define "soundboard" for us, please? It's not a term that I am familiar with in a DB context.

...and if I understand your question, you can totally do that.

Buy a 5-string doublebass: $5-20,000
Have a luthier make this modification for you: $2,000?

Have someone QUALIFIED play and record it before and afterwards and share the results: $0-500?

Convert it back? Probably not, but I'll say $10,000 for a new table. More likely you've permanently destroyed a bass.

If you are curious enough and have that kind of disposable income, go for it. I will subscribe to that thread.

Alternatively, rent a quality, student doublebass (it will be a 4 string): ~$60/mo.

Or buy one: $1,500

Take lessons with a qualified doublebass teacher: ~$65/lesson

Practice for a few years: free and priceless

Get involved with performance on the instrument in the genre of your choosing.

Then decide if you think you have outgrown hundreds of years of progress and consider ways to push beyond the instrument's perceived limitations.
 
It couldn't be and generally, directly under the bridge foot is not where we seem to collectively have our sound posts placed.

I would also be concerned about stability. I dig in hard and I think it would have to be pinned to keep me from pulling it over or around. Childrens violas wouldn't likely see that much pressure.

Finally, while I know that this is not the headline in this posit, but are 5 string doublebasses really becoming more common? They've always existed and have always been more common in Europe than the US for some reason. Is there a recent trend that I've slept on?

I've seen and played exactly one in the wild and it was fun for a second, but not something I would want. The guy who owned it, in his own words said it wasn't useful pizzicato. I know PW (RIP) made it work, but I never listen to The Oscar Peterson Trio and think "if only Ray Brown had lower notes"

Symphony bassists beyond a certain point need to extend their range in that direction, but aside from that the only people who ever seem to express interest seem to be BGist. The same bunch who seem to think that they need Rotosound or DR doublebass strings and whatever effects and amp brands work for them.
Anecdotally, five strings are still pretty rare in US orchestras. I think five strings with high Cs are becoming more common in solo or crossover situations, but low Bs are still pretty rare. My gut feeling as to why that's still the case is a bit of a chicken/egg problem: luthiers over here don't interact with many five string basses, so building one or doing a conversion is going to take more time (and by extension, money) than adding an extension, plus with a five string there are elements of an instrument's construction that make some basses much better candidates than others. From a player's perspective they're more of an unknown because of the rarity of good five string basses, and an extension requires much less to change about your approach to the instrument since you can easily "turn it off" if you're not using the low notes. I haven't spent a lot of time around five string basses in general, but my feeling as to why high Cs are more common among players is that while there are the same setup/construction limitations as a low B (tighter string spacing being the main one), the lower four strings aren't further away from the player like the top strings are on one with a low B, so the C is easier to ignore if you don't need it. I'm kinda spitballing though, so I could be very wrong there.

I've probably mentioned it here before, but I do think five strings are a more elegant solution than an extension for an orchestral situation because of how classical and romantic composers would often double the cello line verbatim in the bass part, and with an extension there are many more technical hurdles than there would be if I just had a low B I could pop down to and continue playing as normal (see: Shostakovich 5 movement 1 at #22). Alas, that is not the reality in the US, and I really like my Laborie and am not in the market for an orchestra bass.

Although I don't play many jazz gigs anymore, I do/did appreciate having the extension for playing low pedal tones or when playing hits, but when playing basslines I pretty much never used it. I personally felt having a five string BG was way more important in jazz/fusion settings that required BG than in situations where a DB was preferable; the extension was fun and nice to have, but it was definitely not essential.
 
Can you define "soundboard" for us, please? It's not a term that I am familiar with in a DB context.

...and if I understand your question, you can totally do that.

Buy a 5-string doublebass: $5-20,000
Have a luthier make this modification for you: $2,000?

Have someone QUALIFIED play and record it before and afterwards and share the results: $0-500?

Convert it back? Probably not, but I'll say $10,000 for a new table. More likely you've permanently destroyed a bass.

If you are curious enough and have that kind of disposable income, go for it
I will subscribe to that thread.

Alternatively, rent a quality, student doublebass (it will be a 4 string): ~$60/mo.

Or buy one: $1,500

Take lessons with a qualified doublebass teacher: ~$65/lesson

Practice for a few years: free and priceless

Get involved with performance on the instrument in the genre of your choosing.

Then decide if you think you have outgrown hundreds of years of progress and consider ways to push beyond the instrument's perceived limitations.
$15k is probably the bare minimum I'd pay for a five string.
 
$15k is probably the bare minimum I'd pay for a five string.

Makes sense. I was allowing for the possibility that I had missed the sudden surge of 5 string DBs "due to improvements in the setup" and that maybe Upton or someone was selling a laminate version, but I'm still not convinced that there is such a trend.

Personally, I wouldn't want one. No one I play with would notice or care and I don't want a heavier, more crowded bass. If I did have one, the 5th string would be high, not low, but I wouldn't gain anything from that that couldn't be gained by putting more work into thumb position.
 
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I know of two high level players in NYC using 5 string basses-one in ASO and one in the Met Orchestra.

My understanding has always been that that's who legitimately needs them...them and Uncle Paul.

(EDIT: I miss PW, but I would have had to reply ban him from this thread, because he would have burned the whole thing to the ground)

99% of the posters who ask about them here are not yet doublebassists, but know better.

The other 1% is @the_Ryan, who as far as I'm concerned, is entitled and seems well-informed enough to know what he wants.
 
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