Double Bass How to build a good two beat groove?

[ctrlzjones]

I am very certain that this topic must have been addressed earlier in the forums history. But researching the threads did not show a lot of instructive info ...

So: In the last couple of month (or was it even years?) I've been able to built a good-enough rendering of time for the 4/4 lines. Only when in comes to the two-beat I still feel like the groove starts to break apart. Not when I strictly play 1 & 3, then everything is still okay, driving forward, but when I start to insert those little figures in between the groove is fading.

Not that I am messing up the time, but that "forward motion" breaks away ... I am well aware that those figures are meant to lead the attention for the next "big" beat, kind of tension - release, but I struggle to find recipes (if there are any) that are musically satisfying in a general sense. The obvious would be to keep the attention to the harmonic motion and the melody and stuff and that you have to find your way via trial and error until you find out for yourself how to do it nicely.

But anyway: as I am pretty sure that this has been a stepping stone for some of the "wise guys" gracefully sharing advice here, I thought I'd dare to ask for things, practise items, routines that can help to overcome the struggle ... How was it for you and what did you do to make it better?

 

[Tom Lane]

Since no one more qualified than me has responded thus far... NO ONE responded... I'll bite.

First, I'm still struggling with this and I suspect that it's a more advanced topic that may well never end.

Here's what I did and am still working on.

I bought Mike Richmond's book based on Andy LaVerne's recommendation. Very happy I did; it's not about playing in two but more about playing pickup notes in 4. Regardless, the knowledge easily transfers to walking in 2. Really good book for playing pickup notes and fills, eighths, triplets, etc.

Listened to Chris Fitzgerald's advice "to not fight the drummer about eighth notes or triplets". If the groove breaks down when I try to fill... I stop filling and let the drummer have it until I can spend more time with them to get a better sense of their sense of time. Back to 1 and 3 for me at least until it starts to groove again. Then, I heed John Goldsby's advice about listening to how I END a note. How you end affects the groove in monumental ways, IME. Do you play completely legato? A bit of "air" between notes? How long? Do you lag? On top of the beat? Ahead? Last, I do my absolute best to channel Rufus Reid's advice... "play the song and make it FEEL good." Sage advice from a verifiable sage.

I think this is a tough topic and it's good that you're struggling with it because with struggle comes growth. Now, can I interest you in some bonds?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

It's a huge topic and not one easily answered. I plan to do a video on the subject, hopefully this summer. The reason it's so complicated is because beyond the simple part of playing on 1 and 3, no one can really tell you when to play, or what, because that's dependent on the available sonic space and motion. You are on the right track when you say, "when I strictly play 1 & 3, then everything is still okay, driving forward, but when I start to insert those little figures in between the groove is fading". This means you are aware of the forward motion and when it bogs down; that is a really important awareness to have.

One thing Rufus Reid told me years ago that helped a lot is to think of a 2 feel as an exuberant walking line that hasn't happened yet; it will happen soon when it gains enough momentum, but in the meantime the balance keeps tipping back to a forward moving two. Rather than trying to hear a bunch of complicated diggety-booms and busy fills that we hear masters play but can only vaguely conceive of ourselves, it's often better to begin by simply becoming aware of where the space actually is. And the most logical place to start practicing finding the space is on melodies where you can actually see where it's likely to be before the it gets muddied by the performer's interpretation.

With students in lessons or in combos, I'll often have them find these spaces and simply walk through them and drop back into 2 when the melody becomes active again. For example, the spaces in the first half of this standard are patently obvious:

When the bassist begins to think of filling the space as answering a question posed by the melody, it makes the whole sound more contrapuntal and conversational. If in the above example the bassist walked the last bar of the first three phrases and the last bar and a half of the final phrase, they would be supplying motion that kicks off the next phrase with some energy without getting in its way. I would advise the student approaching an ornamented 2 feel in this way to find 3-4 ways minimum to fill these spaces with a walking burst that connects the two ends together in a way that swings and provides the appropriate forward motion, then just do that for a while.

Once that level is in place, the awareness of space is there and the player can then work on ornamenting the walking fill rather than trying and failing to construct some busy and vaguely conceived brilliant virtuostic fill that they imagine (insert amazing player X here) would be playing.

 

[brianrost]

For me, a strong groove is always easier when there's fewer notes being played.

I play a lot of non-jazz two beat stuff and for me it's all about using ghost notes or passing tones to push into a downbeat...eighths, sixteenths, triplets all give a different feel. Also getting away from a constant 1-5 and using other chord tones. Playing 1-3 when the chords change every bar gives a very different feel. As Chris mentioned above, knowing when to insert some 4/4 is also important.

On the suggestion of the Mike Richmond book: great just sight reading the lines, but it has very little text explaining why/how the lines work. It's probably better used with a teacher who can help with that if you're not hearing it. I've been going back to it many times over the years as a refresher, each time I get something I had missed before.

 

[Adam Booker]

I always think of two-beat feel as a two measure phrase. Think 1-3-|1-34| and that keeps the momentum moving forward. It also allows you to hit guide tones every two measures which breaks up the “root only” pattern. Two-beat is more or less the “clave” of swing feel.

 

[turf3]

Try JUST playing on 1 and 3. For a whole tune. Or more. No little fills whatsoever. My experience has been that no one but you hears the little fills, but everyone hears if the groove stumbles.

I have been a saxophonist for 40 years, so playing less has been a real challenge for me as I learned bass. Forcing myself to play ONLY on 1 and 3 for long periods of time has been very enlightening for me; it may be for you too.

 

[Roger Davis]

Could I mention the great two beat groove Sam Jones got under the Adderley Bros in Soon. It was all I needed as the right stepping stone.

BTW, I was playing a gig with a drummer I hadn’t met before. I observed that I could always tell if the rhythm was swinging if I could play a two beat under the drums. ‘Ah, but a minim is such a long note to play wrong’ was his reply.

 

[Groove Doctor]

... when in comes to the two-beat I still feel like the groove starts to break apart... when I start to insert those little figures in between the groove is fading.

I found that listening closely to the rhythmic stabs/fills of the drums and piano chords informs me what will work within that band or song. Put on some recordings and tap along with the rhythms of these other players for inspiration.

A conservative/non-responsive drummer or an overplaying pianist can kill the vibe and inhibit me from playing flavoursome bass lines. So, sometimes it's not you.

+1 to Chris' idea of bass fills in the 'empty spaces' between the melody line phrases.

 

[Michael Karn]

Could I mention the great two beat groove Sam Jones got under the Adderley Bros in Soon. It was all I needed as the right stepping stone

You could mention it everyday all day and that still wouldn’t be too much. The two feel he (and Lou Hayes) lays down on that track is literally amazing

 

[ctrlzjones]

it's often better to begin by simply becoming aware of where the space actually is.

Funny that you took this tune ... "All of Me" is like an open invitation for everybody doing it the corny way ...

Other than that: obliged for all the input, all valuable points, hopefully helping to get to it, to get it done down the good way.

Listening to Sam Jones always(!) produces the desire to get closer to that place in his body where all this is coming from ... and to find something similar in oneself, something that can be activated via resonance & intuition ... But it seems to be so difficult to talk about. Listen (and listen deep) is, of course, the best advice.

I am pretty sure that all this (building the groove) is a totally personal undertaking and while pitches are somewhat easy to rationalize (via western notation) the timing of those events remain kind of obscure.

A couple of years ago I was attending a workshop (not a playing participant, but observing) lead by a afro-cuban percussionist. It was all classical players and they were working on "oye como va" ... Not to talk about the missing links, but it was amazing to watch the opposing conceptions of the body. Yes, confirmed prejudice: the guys muscles and tendons were moving in polyrhythm where as the violinists were rather stiff and counting.

I don't mean to romantisize, but (and to come back to the thread): don't you have any routines that would help to get a better grasp on the issues of timing in 2/4? As I said, I'm pretty happy with my 4/4 lines, that I can even break & drive with those muffled skips ala Rufus Reid, it's only when it comes to 2/4 things are falling apart.

What are your favourites for building a feeling for those subdivisions of implied (aka felt but not played) polyrhythms? Any recipes on what I could do to get that into the body?
Or do I have a distorted perspective on all this?

 

[Michael Karn]

The mighty Homes

 

[damonsmith]

My neighbor, Ra-Kalam Bob Moses, advised me to be able to feel my 4/4 lines in 2. That gives us a couple of things, first it puts weak beats on subdivisions. After spending half a year working on it, it leads me to different places in 4/4 but also makes 2 feel natural. Your quarter note line is 1&2& instead of 1234. Once it is comfortable, you feel all sorts of different accents.
It is a really good use of drum genius, I have to say.
So: take a tune you already know well, count it in 2 (but play it the same), I also worked on counting my basic Simandl etudes in 2.

 

[damonsmith]

Yeah, and listen to Sam Jones.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Funny that you took this tune ... "All of Me" is like an open invitation for everybody doing it the corny way ...

Other than that: obliged for all the input, all valuable points, hopefully helping to get to it, to get it done down the good way.

Listening to Sam Jones always(!) produces the desire to get closer to that place in his body where all this is coming from ... and to find something similar in oneself, something that can be activated via resonance & intuition ... But it seems to be so difficult to talk about. Listen (and listen deep) is, of course, the best advice.

I just grabbed a screenshot of a tune with obvious open spaces in the melody that was early in the "alphabetical list". Most standards have space between phrases that can be used in the same way. I'm not sure what you mean about the corny way? What I suggested in terms using quarter notes to create motion during the spaces between phrases is pretty much exactly what Sam Jones is doing on the recording of "Soon" that Mike Karn posted. A technique doesn't suddenly become "corny" just because you are burned out on a tune.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

I just grabbed a screenshot of a tune with obvious open spaces in the melody that was early in the "alphabetical list". Most standards have space between phrases that can be used in the same way. I'm not sure what you mean about the corny way? What I suggested in terms using quarter notes to create motion during the spaces between phrases is pretty much exactly what Sam Jones is doing on the recording of "Soon" that Mike Karn posted. A technique doesn't suddenly become "corny" just because you are burned out on a tune.

I think he suggests that All of me has so much space that everyone tends to fill too much, thus making it corny.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

The last couple of years I've been playing a lot of stringswing (and some bluegrass). If you can't keep a steady two beat in those styles, you're out. I'm still not satisfied with my playing, but I think I'm improving. One thing that I believe has helped is to sing what I play (the important part here is the rhythm, not the pitch). Using All of me as an example: first sing the bassline. (If you have iReal, use it as background with muted bass, and set it to two beat swing). When I recorded my singing, I noticed that it's swung more than when I only played it. (I believe most people are able to sing with some degree of swing). Then start to play and sing, and record. After a while, my playing and singing started to lock together, and the playing improved.

 

[ctrlzjones]

(...) I'm not sure what you mean about the corny way? What I suggested in terms using quarter notes to create motion during the spaces between phrases (...)

I understood well what you meant. The thing with "All Of Me" is that I, and a couple of my peers, find it's harmonic rhythm and melody is inviting for going into a kind of approach that easily becomes "ziggy" (if that's a better adjective) or "cowboy" ...

Other than that, I find the yours and everybodies hints very helpful. Thanks again.

It seems perfect that all suggest to get a better understanding of the underlying "time" (poly?) itself instead of pointing out exact little things do ... that those things must be adjusted to whatever concrete moment that is happening in the grand context to serve well.

My problem seems to be that I do not control a reservoir of those little things (muffled notes, skips and 3s etc) that are to be played exactly enough so that they fit into the bigger picture nurturing the groove ... A skip can help or destroy that forward motion ... All this becomes more obvious in the 2 beat than in the 4/4 lines ... I'll be working on this for the next couple of days, weeks, month and years (no, I'm pretty sure that it'll be forever ...)

 

[turf3]

The last couple of years I've been playing a lot of stringswing (and some bluegrass). If you can't keep a steady two beat in those styles, you're out. I'm still not satisfied with my playing, but I think I'm improving. One thing that I believe has helped is to sing what I play (the important part here is the rhythm, not the pitch). Using All of me as an example: first sing the bassline. (If you have iReal, use it as background with muted bass, and set it to two beat swing). When I recorded my singing, I noticed that it's swung more than when I only played it. (I believe most people are able to sing with some degree of swing). Then start to play and sing, and record. After a while, my playing and singing started to lock together, and the playing improved.

Take all those quarter notes and dotted patterns out. Play using only half notes. Repeat, many many times, until you can truly drive the band by just playing on 1 and 3.

Then, you can start thinking about ornaments.

But the key thing in playing two-beat, is to PLAY TWO-BEAT.

Trust me on this, if you discipline yourself to play true two-beat and restrain yourself from all the other doohickeys, your drive and groove will thank you for it.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Take all those quarter notes and dotted patterns out. Play using only half notes. Repeat, many many times, until you can truly drive the band by just playing on 1 and 3.

Then, you can start thinking about ornaments.

But the key thing in playing two-beat, is to PLAY TWO-BEAT.

Trust me on this, if you discipline yourself to play true two-beat and restrain yourself from all the other doohickeys, your drive and groove will thank you for it.

I think we all agree on that, but that wasn't the question in the op.

 

[Don Kasper]

Capt. Obvious, here...the drummer plays a YUUGE complimentary/supportive part (in 2), when the bass plays "in 2".
Check out the difference in the drums between a "2 feel" and "4 feel" in the bass in Frank's rendition below. (Lotz of "dotted quarter/eighth" in the bass when "in 2", as @Fredrik E. Nilsen correctly shows in his fine example above.)
(This might be Irv Cotler on drums?)