How to Convince A Soundman to Do A Proper Mix

DreadyDiggs

DreadyDiggs

Apr 15, 2008
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#1
Okay, so I see the Sticky that no longer allows bashing of soundmen, I'm not here to do that.

I just played a show Saturday night where neither band got the proper mix for our genre. Reggae is drum and bass forward in the mix. The venue is pretty decent size. We opened and I got approval to through the main band's bass rig. I believe it was an Ampeg SVT3 Pro and a Ampeg 4x10, sitting on top of a busted 1x15 cab.

By the way if you haven't heard of Jah Works from Baltimore, Maryland, look them up. I opened for and met those guys.

So no floor coupling. I could tell during our first song that bass wasn't coming through the PA. I inched the volume up more and more after each song. I've heard these guy's music and trusted his EQ settings 100% haha. He just doesn't use a lot of stage volume, used to the PA doing the work.

I got enough volume to be heard, cause Jah Works came up complimenting me. They listened from the back of the venue. Asked a few people how it sounded, and they all said the bass wasn't loud like reggae supposed to be.

When Jah Works got on, yea no. Definitely not a reggae mix. I mentioned to the engineer that a few of our normal listeners said the bass wasn't as loud or as heavy as normal. He said to me "They don't know what they're hearing, I thought it was pretty f'n loud." I didn't really know how to approach dude to convince him to turn them up, he'd been drinking some and was obviously firm on his position. I enjoyed them from side stage, but I know that placed should've been rumbling.

Every genre has a different mix, so how have you dealt PEACEFULLY with engineers that aren't really familiar with your genre?
 
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#2
It's really easy - pay enough to hire one that isn't a hearing damaged drunk. Hereabouts you can usually get someone competent for $200. That doesn't include the equipment of course. Is it possible that the venue didn't have adequate subbage? It's fairly common for venues unable to pay a good engineer to have a pile'o'crap PA.
 
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#3
Accept the fact that you're getting a lame mix despite politely and professionally requesting a change. I've worked with several different sound guys and they have universally believed the bass should be just barely audible to the very discerning ear regardless of venue or genre. I've heard talk of sound guys who feel differently, but I have yet to encounter one in the wild.

The last gig I played I couldn't even get them to turn the bass up in MY monitor. Played the entire set by feel alone with no auditory feedback.
 
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#4
This is the second time I've played the venue. The kick drum was heavy throughout the building, but he wouldn't turn up the bass guitar haha.

Neither Jah Works nor the band I played for are to the point where they can hire soundmen consistently, so they settle. At least I tried :*(
 
#5
strictlybass_ic said:
Accept the fact that you're getting a lame mix despite politely and professionally requesting a change. I've worked with several different sound guys and they have universally believed the bass should be just barely audible to the very discerning ear regardless of venue or genre. I've heard talk of sound guys who feel differently, but I have yet to encounter one in the wild.
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We tend to have the opposite hereabouts - stoopid loud "hot" subs rulez :facepalm:. Good for that Hippity Hoppity noise :headphone: and Reggae :D - sux for everything else :rollno:.
 
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#7
I'd bet the sound man thought he was giving you a "proper" mix... most I know (including me) will try to make the band sound the best we can with the available gear.. Some are better at it than others..
So.. question.. do you KNOW that the PA system (subs?) could handle the bottom end and the kick in the house wasn't just upper-end click??
One of the toughest things to do in any mix is to dial in kick and bass (and add keys into the mix if there are any) not have them step all over each other. It takes a little skill to do that, and it can vary by genre. idk.
 
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#8
I don't ever even think for a second what the sound people are doing anymore. You either pay someone to get what you want, or think of it like the weather. It may be sunny and in the 70s, or it may be a blizzard. To be happy we must learn to roll with it. My opinion.

Telling sound people what to do with their mix to me is the equivalent of people telling me what to do with my bass.
 
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#9
I think you proceeded the right way. As long as you are respectful and don't sound condescending I don't see why any reasonable FOH guy would object to receiving a request like yours. But some guys just aren't going to want to budge and, if that's the case, you're probably better off leaving things alone.
 
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#10
bass12 said:
I think you proceeded the right way. As long as you are respectful and don't sound condescending I don't see why any reasonable FOH guy would object to receiving a request like yours. But some guys just aren't going to want to budge and, if that's the case, you're probably better off leaving things alone.
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it's NEVER a good idea to p*ss off the guy at FOH...
see @Joe Nerve's post above :)
Joe Nerve said:
Telling sound people what to do with their mix to me is the equivalent of people telling me what to do with my bass.
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#11
I remember that time I suggested to the house sound guy that he sound check our drummer's kit without hard gating all of his drum mics (and I'm talking about HARD gating, Phil Collins style), or maybe loosen them up. Evidently, that's the equivalent of calling his mother a dirty whore. I also learned that these types of sound mixers use the heavy gate as a crutch allowing them to bypass EQing toms, and substituting the natural sustain and resonance of a drum with a 5 second trail reverb.

I'm with those who suggest you take things as they come, and worry about delivering a good performance. On the other hand, if the house sound mixer torpedoes your mix and you lose a crowd because of it, the club will always blame the performers, not their own (poorly paid) help. Tough call sometimes.
 
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#13
Mushroo said:
Unless you were paying him, I don't see you have any right to tell the guy what to do. He doesn't work for you.
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Boy, is that a loaded statement. "We do things this way because this is the way we do things", right? Sorry. Not in my world. "Telling" a sound mixer and "engaging in professional, polite discussion" about a band's desires are two different things. You can usually get most of what you want by simply not approaching a sound mixer like he's a prick. But that doesn't always work, does it? Even when not trying to offend, some mixers have that chip on their shoulder and you just aren't going to win, no matter how hard you try.

As most venues rely on their entertainment to be as appealing as possible, those who hire house sound techs should understand that it is in their own best interests to have their house sound tech staff play as nice as possible with the hired talent. You're much likely to have a successful event if the band looks and sounds good, and puts on an entertaining show. It's always a shame when the sound techs make it all about them, to the point where you can see a band's performance suffer for it.

I might add that the sound mixer stands no chance of getting tipped (sometimes significantly) if he's an inattentive dick to the band. Much of the time, you pay attention and assist the band, they'll remember and grease you for the help.

This coming from a guy who has probably mixed just as many shows as a "house guy" as he has performed as a bassist on stage (100-200 per year) over the last 30+ years...just to provide a little perspective.

JMHO...etc.
 
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#15
Joe Nerve said:
I don't ever even think for a second what the sound people are doing anymore. You either pay someone to get what you want, or think of it like the weather. It may be sunny and in the 70s, or it may be a blizzard. To be happy we must learn to roll with it. My opinion.

Telling sound people what to do with their mix to me is the equivalent of people telling me what to do with my bass.
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100%

Some guys are great at mixing across several genres. Some guys (a lot of guys) can only mix rock bands. Some guys are deaf and can only mix rock bands!
 
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#18
1954bassman said:
I have noticed from the few times I heard live bands at county fairs and such that the current fad for some sandmen is huge amounts of kick, with unintelligible bass. Thank goodness the festivals I play at use truly professional sound companies.
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I have noticed in recent years this is the fad of modern mixing, massive kick and barely any bass, especially large concert venues.
It must be a sound engineer conspiracy, do they all belong to the same secret underground society?
 
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#19
When we headline, we use our own sound man and it sounds like it should. When we open, I don't worry about it although since I joined my current band most of the time it sounds good.

It's one of the reasons I use an SVT - it always sounds good to me. What the sound man does with the signal I send is out of my control.
 
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#20
we would discuss our reggae needs before, during, and after sound check. i would have a cheat sheet prepared for the engineer inorder to further make him part of our performance. there were songs and parts of songs where we would "Dub Out" and the list would give him room to add delay to the snare drum or vocals,.. most soundmen LOVED working with us.
btw,.. the bass player or BL must over emphasize his role, imo.
i once had a SM tell me he would not put me through the Subs because my rig was adequate! i calmly explained it wasn't about volume, but presence & tone. he hooked me up and politely agreed with the results. years ago, we employed our own SM and owned a very formidable PA! gl
 
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