Double Bass HPF Volume Setting?

B

BobKay

Supporting Member
Nov 5, 2012
1,197
1,124
5,451
Estero, Florida; USA
#1
When I use my F Deck HPF Pre Model 2 in front of my AI Coda, I have three volume controls to deal with. I pretty much understand where to set the input gain and master volume on the amp (I usually start at 12:00 for each), but I'm not sure what to do with the HPF control.

I've read here that some people put it at the max and then use the amp controls for final volume. Is that the best approach?

Does anyone use the HPF Pre to actually control final volume?

Appreciate any suggestions. The pickup is a Rev Solo II.
 
#2
You need to put the HPFpre volume to max to level in your amps gain control (no peak or only a very little bit when diggin in hard).
Then turn the HPFpre volume a bit back (no less than half) and get your final volume with the amps master. This way you can turn the volume up at the HPFpre without overdiving your amps input if you need a bit more volume.
 
#3
The deck series II has 2db of gain..so, I keep mine dialed back to about 75% of the range, and use the control for solos. Very nice. But really, anything goes, I don't think you are danger of overdriving anything if you leave it up 100%. At least not in my experience.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chris Fitzgerald
#6
I have a series 3 HPF, and it’s my understanding that the output, when going “wide open” is at unity gain. Thus, I leave it maxed because anything less would be more quiet than the signal that my bass is actually putting out on its own.

I’d still run your Fdeck 2 at its max volume and then dial back the pre on the AI a little bit. If your standard without the HPF is noon, depending on how many lows you cut, perhaps start out at 11:00 instead.

If you start rolling off a lot of lows, you’ll need to compensate in your gain structure by adding more gain from the preamp stage of your AI to get the same volume going through your EQ and then into the power amp— possibly even with the added 2dB from the HPF preamp.

Even with a solid state amp, you can get different results from the gain staging. For a more “open” sound, I back off the preamp and use more of the master volume. If I need something that’s very direct or aggressive, I run the preamp hotter and dial back the master.

There are ways to gain stage that are technically correct, but you ultimately need to find what works best for you and the performance situation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BassiklyAC
#7
Pat - thanks for the post. Very helpful. I played an outdoor show last night. I knew I would have to go loud, so right before loading the car I took off the Fdeck and took my Headway EDB2. And I used an AI Ten2 instead of the Coda. I ran the signal from the amp to the PA system. I could not seem to get anything I was happy with. Very thin and reedy sound, with lots of finger noise, although the volume was OK. I think I need to do more work on this, including using more of the tone controls on the small board that feeds the PA. I normally ask him to leave it flat, but now I wonder if the signal I'm sending to the PA has any of the EQ from the Headway, which I run into the effects loop on the AI. Anyway, I need to read more threads on the forum, and most importantly simply keep experimenting with both pres that I have. Thanks again.
 
#8
Happy to help, Bob. A common move that I'll do in instances where there is PA support is that I'll roll out quite a bit of low end in my signal (using he stage amp as a monitor), and then send that more streamlined/thin tone to the FOH. At this point, the FOH will reintroduce/boost the lows back into the mains. This does a few things, but most noticeably, it keeps the low end out front tight. It also restricts your signal strength to the preamps of the FOH because you're not sending all of the low end content/energy. Depending on how much you remove on your end, it also ensures that you're sending a signal that will go to the mains where the midrange of the instrument lives so that the bulk of your signal isn't sent to the subs.

Necessarily, the tone on the bandstand isn't great, but the tone out front is fantastic, IME. If I'm on a big hollow stage with subs out front, the last thing I personally need is more low end on the bandstand. I've gotten used to it and don't mind it a bit, but some players prefer to have "their tone" at all costs. It's whatever works best for you in a specific performance situation.
 
#9
just an fyi, when you're using an AI amp or the headway preamp, the fdeck is redundant. its not necessary. both of those things have good input impedance for piezo pickups and both have their own hpf. you may be double high passing it, which could lead to a thin sound
 
  • Like
Reactions: vin*tone
#10
shwashwa - understood. I only use one or the other, not both. When I use a preamp with my AI, (either one), I run it into the effects return loop, bypassing the AI preamp and tone controls.
Pat - I'll try that technique on the next outdoor gig, which is 11/11. Playing on concrete, so the stage isn't an issue. Thanks again for sharing your experience. I've finally accepted that "loud" is always going to be an issue for the double bass, at least for mine. I've got to quit worrying about what I hear, and work on what the audience hears.
 
#11
BobKay said:
shwashwa - understood. I only use one or the other, not both. When I use a preamp with my AI, (either one), I run it into the effects return loop, bypassing the AI preamp and tone controls.
Pat - I'll try that technique on the next outdoor gig, which is 11/11. Playing on concrete, so the stage isn't an issue. Thanks again for sharing your experience. I've finally accepted that "loud" is always going to be an issue for the double bass, at least for mine. I've got to quit worrying about what I hear, and work on what the audience hears.
Click to expand...
In my opinion the F deck is not enough to run straight into the effects Return of the AI. The Headway is , however. You're going to need to cut some harsh upper mids and probably some highs from the Piezo pickup. If you leave them in there it could leave your sound thin and brittle
 
  • Like
Reactions: vin*tone and BobKay
#12
shwashwa said:
just an fyi, when you're using an AI amp or the headway preamp, the fdeck is redundant.
Click to expand...

I can't speak for the Headway, but on the AI, the FDeck going into the preamp isn't redundant.

The HPF in the AI comes after the Preamp and EQ section of the head. If you wanted to eliminate any infrasonic information and to free up a bit more headroom in your preamp gain stage, you can definitely use the Fdeck before the input without it being redundant.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chris Fitzgerald and jallenbass
#13
shwashwa said:
just an fyi, when you're using an AI amp or the headway preamp, the fdeck is redundant. its not necessary. both of those things have good input impedance for piezo pickups and both have their own hpf. you may be double high passing it, which could lead to a thin sound
Click to expand...

That said, my AI’s don’t have a phase switch and I appreciate that on the HPF out where I am.
 
#15
Pat, and all the others who contributed - here's a follow up. On Friday night I used my Headway EDB2 into my AI Coda 4, running into the effects return loop. Rolled off all of the bass and most of the lo-mids. Sent that signal to the PA via the balanced XLR out from the amp. Had the lows boosted on the small board running the PA. Worked really well - at least, much better than what I was doing before. I noticed that I had to turn up the master on the amp to have enough stage volume, but that was the only difference. Thanks again for the suggestions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pat Harris
#16
Was perusing threads about EQ, as I was doing an unusual amount of knob twirling on the gig tonight, and came upon Pat's contributions to the discussion. Found his comments about Gain level versus Master level particularly helpful and enlightening. Thanks Pat!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pat Harris
#17
More than happy to lend a hand, and if it helps, all the better. It's probably best suited for a separate topic, but since we're on the HPF train, and a HPF cuts frequencies, that's also how I approach all EQ in a live situation. I find that using reductive EQ works great for me on both upright and bass guitar.

If you're already familiar, I apologize, but essentially, don't boost anything, just cut. IE: If you need more midrange, cut the lows to allow the mids to "speak" better rather than boosting the mids. I'm the last person to claim that I have a transparent or natural tone, but it's a tone that works really well in the mix for listeners out front and for my own monitoring needs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BassiklyAC, Povl Carstensen, Seanto and 1 other person
#18
Pat Harris said:
More than happy to lend a hand, and if it helps, all the better. It's probably best suited for a separate topic, but since we're on the HPF train, and a HPF cuts frequencies, that's also how I approach all EQ in a live situation. I find that using reductive EQ works great for me on both upright and bass guitar.

If you're already familiar, I apologize, but essentially, don't boost anything, just cut. IE: If you need more midrange, cut the lows to allow the mids to "speak" better rather than boosting the mids. I'm the last person to claim that I have a transparent or natural tone, but it's a tone that works really well in the mix for listeners out front and for my own monitoring needs.
Click to expand...
This is how I handle EQ as well. It's better to cut than to boost IME
 
  • Like
Reactions: Seanto
#19
I believe there are benefits to be gained with additive EQ.
There are times when I don't want to lose any of the low end and I'll boost the mids or highs a bit to add some clarity.
If I need to fatten the sound on the G string, I will boost the bass and compensate with the HPF, cutting that boost from the lower strings.

With bass guitar, I think of it as sound production rather than sound reproduction. I use the amplifier/speaker system to create a sound instead of attempting to replicate one. In that case, I find boosting is definitely as viable as cutting.
 
#20
BobKay said:
Pat - thanks for the post. Very helpful. I played an outdoor show last night. I knew I would have to go loud, so right before loading the car I took off the Fdeck and took my Headway EDB2. And I used an AI Ten2 instead of the Coda. I ran the signal from the amp to the PA system. I could not seem to get anything I was happy with. Very thin and reedy sound, with lots of finger noise, although the volume was OK. I think I need to do more work on this, including using more of the tone controls on the small board that feeds the PA. I normally ask him to leave it flat, but now I wonder if the signal I'm sending to the PA has any of the EQ from the Headway, which I run into the effects loop on the AI. Anyway, I need to read more threads on the forum, and most importantly simply keep experimenting with both pres that I have. Thanks again.
Click to expand...

I know I'm a bit late on this but I find the best sound is by going through as little circuitry as possible.

The Headway is a very nice preamp but I don't see the need for both. The AMP does everything you need.

The AI Ten2 has impedance matching input, a high-pass filter built in and a balanced out.

If you are not happy with the sound coming out of the AMP, try a DI (stagebug) and use that before the AMP.

But you don't need both Headway or Fdeck and the AI Ten2.

A brittle thin sound is usually because of the wrong impedance. Or something in the signal path causing problems.

BTW: I plug my Double Bass straight into a Genz Benz shuttle MAX 9.2 and 2x10" cones. No preamp needed, the AMP has a wide impedance input, like the AI, and has a beautiful sounding midrange. It doesn't have a HPF but low end has not been a problem so far playing Bluegrass and Country at low vol, in the style of Alison Krauss and Union Station. If I had to deal with louder stage volumes I would switch to a EUB or plain EB.

All the best.
Paul
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back