Jeff Berlin says - Being a Fan is Hurting Your Playing!

[JeffBerlin]

In a previous post, I wrote that a lesson offered by another bass player had flaws in it. I asked people not to state his name as I had no wish to make things personal. I had the belief that it was possible to discuss the subject of music with people on TB and get their cooperation to meet me halfway so that music was the topic, not the the author of the exercise as I very much like this person and didn’t wish to point any fingers at him by name.


I found out that it wasn’t possible to get people to focus on content instead of personalities. This got me thinking about why so many people’s knee-jerk reaction is either anger or resistance. Reflecting on this, I decided that the reason is because today, people are fans, not consumers of music.


Once, it was “safe” to be a fan of a musician; we loved their playing and their whole public vibe. But, today, it isn’t a trustworthy thing to be a fan of bass players because now those bass players are teaching you how to play. Your very musical future is entirely in your heroes’ hands, not because they took this authority from you, but because you as fans gave it to them. People have given up even their ability to think for themselves. When one’s favorite bass player teaches something, no one questions its educational validity. Why? Because you are fans to where you have surrendered your cognitive thinking. Simply put, many accept what they hear almost as one in a cult does. In essence (please forgive me) people have dumbed themselves down as much as their bass teachers have dumbed down music education. This is an extremely unwise situation for you to put yourselves into.


But, fortunately, this does not have to stay like this. The ball is in your hands to love all of us who play but question all of us who teach. Actually, this would be pretty wise of you to do. Doubt my views as well. Don’t just believe what I say. But, do some research on my thoughts or you will be motivated by your feelings, not the information that you have uncovered for yourselves regarding my views There should be some historical precedence to what I share. Question what I say by looking for answers that either validate or nullify my views.


Ultimately, we all are fans. In my case, I loved Jack Bruce as a bass God, but I never would have studied with him, other than learning from listening to his music. My fan love never put me into any situation where I studied with someone just because I loved their spirit, their heart, or their playing. I studied with teachers who were capable of teaching me music that I didn’t know. And, I still remained a fan of my musical heroes. It’s a win-win.


To end, I wish to add something.


I don’t apologize for my educational views. I don’t apologize for my criticizing methods of learning that are musically insupportable. I don’t apologize for criticizing the industry, the very totality of bass educators in music who aren’t qualified to teach even if they are qualified to play. I make every effort to not name names in order to cause person embarrassment. It’s about the lessons that they teach. If some don’t agree with my views, frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn. If my comments annoy you, then deal with it, or just go away.


From now on, I’m ignoring anyone that isn’t interacting with me in a civil manner. I know that there are serious musicians reading my posts who agree and who disagree with me. If you choose, I am here to help. And, if you don’t understand by now what motivates me to make the comments that I share, you never will get it. And, if are looking for a fight, you won’t get one from me either.


Regards, Jeff

 

[RoadRanger]

Well said - I hate the fan/groupie/spectator/gearhead culture. Probably why I dislike professional sports and I generally choose playing over watching .

 

[Gorn]

Maybe next time you want to leave a person out of a discussion, instead of alluding to him without his name you could refer to the ideas on their own. What you did was the written equivalent of a wink and a nod towards that person hoping they won't notice.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Maybe next time you want to leave a person out of a discussion, instead of alluding to him without his name you could refer to the ideas on their own. What you did was the written equivalent of a wink and a nod towards that person hoping they won't notice.

Good point. I will remember that. P.S. I never wink and nod.

 

[BusyFingers]

I think what you're suggesting goes way beyond what you see in the bass culture. This is a sweeping phenomenon. People don't want to think for themselves, they don't want to question anything, they are kind of like very passive receptors of information. This should scare people, as that kind of position makes you easy prey for media manipulation.

 

[Roy Royerson]

I think it’s important, especially with the access we have today, to look to many sources to develop as musicians. I like that you even encourage people to question and research your teachings and appreciate you throwing that in there. Personally I prefer to learn most from piano players and even occasionaly youtube piano lessons for more knowledge and techniques. I find keyboard players know their stuff very well and they understand bass/harmony.

It’s not unlike coaching in sports most likely. Occasionally there is a former superstar athlete who is a great coach but generally it’s less talented athletes who are the best coaches. Also while our favorite bassist are often the best players, in many cases a less accomplished player devotes more time and energy in becoming a great teacher. Also many great bassists have talents they are born with that can not be taught or learned.

 

[Craig4003]

I don't think this is just a matter of music fans. People focus on personalities and emotional attachments because they lack knowledge and are incapable of either following or making logical arguments. We see this in many areas of life today; it happens in the vast majority of political arguments in the US, for example. (I won't cite any examples because I don't want this to become a political argument, but I think sensible people from a variety of viewpoints can agree about this, and those who are honest will admit that it isn't just "the other side" that is guilty of it.)

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think what you're suggesting goes way beyond what you see in the bass culture. This is a sweeping phenomenon. People don't want to think for themselves, they don't want to question anything, they are kind of like very passive receptors of information. This should scare people, as that kind of position makes you easy prey for media manipulation.

I agree, but I am relating to bass players who, literally, are throwing away any chance at learning how to play correctly. Why? Because most of the bass teachers that people blindly follow are self taught. They can play, but they can't teach. They don't know how music works off of their bass. Schools are teaching via new methods where broad approaches, not specific one are offered. This prevents students from learning anything to its logical end since a smorgasbord of learning is available.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think it’s important, especially with the access we have today, to look to many sources to develop as musicians. I like that you even encourage people to question and research your teachings and appreciate you throwing that in there. Personally I prefer to learn most from piano players and even occasionaly youtube piano lessons for more knowledge and techniques. I find keyboard players know their stuff very well and they understand bass/harmony.

It’s not unlike coaching in sports most likely. Occasionally there is a former superstar athlete who is a great coach but generally it’s less talented athletes who are the best coaches. Also while our favorite bassist are often the best players, in many cases a less accomplished player devotes more time and energy in becoming a great teacher. Also many great bassists have talents they are born with that can not be taught or learned.

I agree with your thoughts. Realize that I also agree that there are many sources to learn from. But this shouldn't take place in music schools nor with teachers. This didn't happen in the past and no one was ill affected by mandatory and to-the-point music education.

Any motivated self taught bass player can cover anything and everything that they want and do this mostly for free. Studying with a teacher and especially at a school means that the most narrow approach to teaching should take place. This is how music education always worked and it worked so well that the entire planet's community of musicians were taught this way. Emphasising a broad education means that the teachers or schools can't specify perfectly, the musical needs required to play beyond the styles that are also unnecessarily being taught in music schools these days.

 

[PaulJSmith]

Any motivated self taught bass player can cover anything and everything that they want and do this mostly for free. Studying with a teacher and especially at a school means that the most narrow approach to teaching should take place. This is how music education always worked and it worked so well that the entire planet's community of musicians were taught this way. Emphasising a broad education means that the teachers or schools can't specify perfectly, the musical needs required to play beyond the styles that are also unnecessarily being taught in music schools these days.

I don't think this part can be emphasized enough, Jeff. Proper music education can be entirely free of stylistic influence, because the very foundations apply to every musical genre. Learn the "geeky" technical stuff, and you can use that knowledge to play in any style you want.

I agree; study music first. As for styles ... you might be too busy developing your own to worry about what others are doing.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I don't think this part can be emphasized enough, Jeff. Proper music education can be entirely free of stylistic influence, because the very foundations apply to every musical genre. Learn the "geeky" technical stuff, and you can use that knowledge to play in any style you want.

I agree; study music first. As for styles ... you might be too busy developing your own to worry about what others are doing.

Learning music is devoid of learning styles. Learning styles is different and requires little to no instruction. Neither learning the playing styles of bass players is important; most bass players never learned even half of the various styles that music schools are trying to expose their students to.

In my opinion, when music isn't taught, then bass teachers have to teach SOMETHING. Hence the creation and offering of learning principles, most of which have no precedence in music education history.

 

[StatesideRambler]

Too many schools, including some universities, have become market driven. "Students" are demanding that they be taught what they want to learn instead of what they need to learn and the schools are catering to them. Sometime in their past they were told (and believed) that they didn't have to do anything they didn't want to do. It's evident in the results.

 

[Rhythmman535]

I've been to enough concerts and seen enough live music on TV to notice that I've seen a lot of the same faces in the bass chair supporting various artists and events. I came to realize that it wasn't by coincidence. Yes these folks have paid their dues and "made it" but that never would've happened if they didn't have the skills to do the job. Those are the bass players that I look up to and I wouldn't necessarily need to take lessons from them but I would and do definitely appreciate their mentorship. For example, I've had enough pros tell me that reading is an absolute must therefore I don't need to question it.

 

[Alper Yilmaz]

Jef,

I humbly agree with your approach to music/bass education and the whole discussion around taking "fan"ship to levels that hurts one's own standing as a musician. When it comes to bass, particularly electric bass, unfortunately the instrument is not seen or taken by most, even on this Forum, seriously. In most youth bands, the kid who cannot play the guitar is given the bass, as most popular music forms do not even require basic music theory or sophistication on the bass. At least, this is how it is conceived by most, I believe. When this is the case, coupled with "no" intellectual curiosity on "music" as an art form, most people seem quite satisfied with their level and they do not seem to invest in the time and funds to learn music at an academic level.

I personally know lots of electric bass players, particularly in the pop/rock music scene, who have established careers (make good money, play with well-known folks, etc.), yet they have only a limited knowledge of music and theory. Interestingly, they seem quite satisfied with where they are (good for them!) and their followers are real fanatics. Due to this whole attitude mostly created by electric bass players themselves, I sometimes even question if "electric bass" should be taken seriously as an instrument! Try to have a similar approach on upright bass and see how you can function on the instrument, right?

When someone approaches me for a bass lesson (unless that is a serious person who is willing to dedicate his/her time to an academic training in music), my lesson takes 5 minutes for them (at no charge). I simply tell them to come up with a list of 50-100 tunes, yet demanding ones, start transcribing them note-by-note, start playing them trying to imitate the tone of the bass player, so that he/she would sound good at least. Now, please take this with a grain of salt and some sarcastic sense of humor; as I tell this as a joke! But, I really do not see any other way to teach/motivate someone who is not willing to learn music to start with.

Anyway, thanks for bringing these to the discussion floor....

Best,

Alper

 

[JeffBerlin]

Too many schools, including some universities, have become market driven. "Students" are demanding that they be taught what they want to learn instead of what they need to learn and the schools are catering to them. Sometime in their past they were told (and believed) that they didn't have to do anything they didn't want to do. It's evident in the results.

It is what causes me to criticize bass education; students aren't qualified to choose what to study. They're paying a lot of money so that bass experts should be doing this for them

 

[JeffBerlin]

I personally know lots of electric bass players, particularly in the pop/rock music scene, who have established careers (make good money, play with well-known folks, etc.), yet they have only a limited knowledge of music and theory.

Employment is unpredictable. I can only congratulate any bass player that finds employment and wish them well. But, attending a music school to learn bass to where one is qualified to be employed isn't a reasonable goal to go to school for. Being taught correctly is. The result of being taught well could be a long career in music. Employment in music isn't predictable. But improvement as a playing is. You only have to be lucky enough to find a bass teacher that only gives you great musical content to practice each week.

Teaching Jaco classes, bass styles, or playing styles, in short, teaching a broad education that so many bass schools teach by doesn't attend to the fact that every style or playing concept that one wants to learn all include a G major chord (so to speak) in them. If the root of every style of music is harmonic, and if every bass player in those styles are self taught in them, then precedence shows that the best schools and the top bass teachers aren't preparing their students for a career very well because they aren't being guided by the historical facts of teaching/learning. Actually, I feel that they literally are preparing their students to eventually be obsolete because the music and topics of today will soon pass into obscurity as all popular musical concepts eventually do.

 

[Alper Yilmaz]

Teaching Jaco classes, bass styles, or playing styles, in short, teaching a broad education that so many bass schools teach by doesn't attend to the fact that every style or playing concept that one wants to learn all include a G major chord (so to speak) in them. If the root of every style of music is harmonic, and if every bass player in those styles are self taught in them, then precedence shows that the best schools and the top bass teachers aren't preparing their students for a career very well because they aren't being guided by the historical facts of teaching/learning. Actually, I feel that they literally are preparing their students to eventually be obsolete because the music and topics of today will soon pass into obscurity as all popular musical concepts eventually do.

That reminds me of schools (in other fields as well) where they teach a specific software (Jaco's unique style, in this case) rather than the general theory/concept (music theory, in this case). I remember a friend attending a film school in SF who was taking courses on a multitude of film editing software rather than studying the theory behind editing. Two of the three software products he took classes on are not out there anymore, and of course there are some transitions among these (if you know one, it makes learning the other easier). In my undergraduate education as an industrial engineer, regular class hours would be dedicated to the theory and only at recitation hours we would look into software-specific or problem-specific topics. Or we would be simply assigned homework in which we would be asked to, say, programming in C+, etc. Has worked for me...

 

[Rhythmman535]

It is what causes me to criticize bass education; students aren't qualified to choose what to study. They're paying a lot of money so that bass experts does this for them

Agreed

 

[JeffBerlin]

That reminds me of schools (in other fields as well) where they teach a specific software (Jaco's unique style, in this case) rather than the general theory/concept (music theory, in this case). I remember a friend attending a film school in SF who was taking courses on a multitude of film editing software rather than studying the theory behind editing. Two of the three software products he took classes on are not out there anymore, and of course there are some transitions among these (if you know one, it makes learning the other easier). In my undergraduate education as an industrial engineer, regular class hours would be dedicated to the theory and only at recitation hours we would look into software-specific or problem-specific topics. Or we would be simply assigned homework in which we would be asked to, say, programming in C+, etc. Has worked for me...

Your post is relevant. Being taught content instead of style is what made you capable in your career. Bass education is not focused on content which explains the generally poor playing of many bass players. But, as I often have shared, it doesn't have to be this way if people decide that being offered a higher quality of bass education is of an interest to them.

Thank you for sharing this. It was important for people to read.

 

[two fingers]

In a previous post, I wrote that a lesson offered by another bass player had flaws in it. I asked people not to state his name as I had no wish to make things personal. I had the belief that it was possible to discuss the subject of music with people on TB and get their cooperation to meet me halfway so that music was the topic, not the the author of the exercise as I very much like this person and didn’t wish to point any fingers at him by name.


I found out that it wasn’t possible to get people to focus on content instead of personalities. This got me thinking about why so many people’s knee-jerk reaction is either anger or resistance. Reflecting on this, I decided that the reason is because today, people are fans, not consumers of music.


Once, it was “safe” to be a fan of a musician; we loved their playing and their whole public vibe. But, today, it isn’t a trustworthy thing to be a fan of bass players because now those bass players are teaching you how to play. Your very musical future is entirely in your heroes’ hands, not because they took this authority from you, but because you as fans gave it to them. People have given up even their ability to think for themselves. When one’s favorite bass player teaches something, no one questions its educational validity. Why? Because you are fans to where you have surrendered your cognitive thinking. Simply put, many accept what they hear almost as one in a cult does. In essence (please forgive me) people have dumbed themselves down as much as their bass teachers have dumbed down music education. This is an extremely unwise situation for you to put yourselves into.


But, fortunately, this does not have to stay like this. The ball is in your hands to love all of us who play but question all of us who teach. Actually, this would be pretty wise of you to do. Doubt my views as well. Don’t just believe what I say. But, do some research on my thoughts or you will be motivated by your feelings, not the information that you have uncovered for yourselves regarding my views There should be some historical precedence to what I share. Question what I say by looking for answers that either validate or nullify my views.


Ultimately, we all are fans. In my case, I loved Jack Bruce as a bass God, but I never would have studied with him, other than learning from listening to his music. My fan love never put me into any situation where I studied with someone just because I loved their spirit, their heart, or their playing. I studied with teachers who were capable of teaching me music that I didn’t know. And, I still remained a fan of my musical heroes. It’s a win-win.


To end, I wish to add something.


I don’t apologize for my educational views. I don’t apologize for my criticizing methods of learning that are musically insupportable. I don’t apologize for criticizing the industry, the very totality of bass educators in music who aren’t qualified to teach even if they are qualified to play. I make every effort to not name names in order to cause person embarrassment. It’s about the lessons that they teach. If some don’t agree with my views, frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn. If my comments annoy you, then deal with it, or just go away.


From now on, I’m ignoring anyone that isn’t interacting with me in a civil manner. I know that there are serious musicians reading my posts who agree and who disagree with me. If you choose, I am here to help. And, if you don’t understand by now what motivates me to make the comments that I share, you never will get it. And, if are looking for a fight, you won’t get one from me either.


Regards, Jeff

I'll take it one step further in that YouTube is accelerating the death of music education.

These days one isn't even learning from his "rock god hero". One is learning a "riff" or a song from some kid sitting on his bed with a Gopro camera or am iPhone who also happens to be a huge fan of the rock god. So even the possibility of learning from a rock star who happens to be a horrible teacher has been replaced by learning from "Zack from Sheboygan" sitting on his Star Wars sheets.