Lee Dorman, not Philip Taylor Kramer

[Cardinal Fang]

I originally thought the bass player on the song posted below was Philip Taylor Kramer but I stand corrected (thanks). It's actually Lee Dorman.

Iron Butterfly: Most Anything That You Want

Can we talk about the bass in the verse and chorus of this song? It sounds good and I like it a LOT and it seems to fit the song just fine (it's maybe a little distracting) but I've been listening to it for at least twenty years and still don't know where it's coming from.

I mean, my understanding is that the traditional role of a rock and roll bass player is to bridge rhythm and melody by using notes from other instruments while taking cues from the drums. This could be simply explained by saying Philip Taylor Kramer (R.I.P.) was not a traditional bass player and that's fine but I really don't know where he's getting these notes from.

It could probably also be explained with the word "cocaine" but that's too easy as well (just kidding, I don't know if the guy ever took a drug in his life). The guy knows his notes and his technique sounds perfect to me. Maybe he just hears things nobody else hears?

Is this a known "style" I'm not aware of? Can anyone think of similar examples by other bass players? I cannot.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

PS - If you're not familiar with Iron Butterfly you should listen to a song called In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, it's an epic tune full of amazing stuff. Heck, you may have already heard it (on The Simpsons) and didn't realize.

 

[Tyco666]

Hmmm - not sure I agree with your assessment. His bass playing sounds very on track of providing the rhythm section of outlining the chord changes. Yes, there is a little color in the riffs but it is purely rhythm.

 

[Michedelic]

Uh, sorry, but that was IB’s original bassist, Lee Dorman, who hung in there from the band’s first album, through a couple of guitar personnel shake-ups, until the end of the band’s original run in 1971. The group reformed in the mid 70’s with second guitarist Erik Brann and drummer Ron Bushy(but keyboardist/lead vocalist/main writer Doug Ingle was absent, as well as Dorman). That’s when Taylor was involved. This rebooting of the band was not very successful, music styles had moved on, and without Ingle’s involvement, the new material was pretty weak. For the next couple of decades there was constant reshuffling of personnel, some earlier members coming and going along with newer replacements, the band slipped into being a psychedelic relic nostalgia band. Taylor died under mysterious circumstances in the mid-90’s. Dorman, whose bass work it is that you like, died in 2012. How old are you? Inna-Gadda-Da-Vida was one of the most massively big hits of the Psychedelic era, so much so that it became something of a joke, especially the drum solo(in an an era of countless gratuitous drum solos). Ringo Starr, who never recorded a solo before, spoofed/payed homage to it at the end of “Abbey Road”. When The Beatles noticed the impact of what another band was doing, that was pretty considerable. You knew it when you heard it, it was all over the place, primarily on the then newly developing FM rock radio stations. IB certainly had their following, but was also dismissed by many fellow musicians(and critics)as being a bunch of overblown psych cheese dressed up in day-glow trappings. I saw the ‘classic’ line-up live, just after their “Ball” album came out(I was just out of grade school); they played great, loud as hell(they had one of the first high-tech touring PA’s of the time), but other stuff like Led Zeppelin came along and rendered their sound dated. It’s funny how they had been touted(along with the somewhat similar band Steppenwolf)as being ‘heavy metal’, but I always just pegged both as psychedelic hard rock(the term ‘heavy metal’ really hadn’t come into common usage yet back in their day). As a bassist, yeah, I always dug what Dorman was doing, very active and melodic, obviously influenced by McCartney, Jameson, Kaye, and Osborne. That style was developing all over the place in that time period, you can hear it in the work of BS&T’s Jim Fielder, Vanilla Fudge’s Tim Bogert, Harvey Brooks, Canned Heat’s Larry Taylor, and JPJ, among others. Lastly, I seriously don’t think Dorman was coked out; that didn’t really come in predominantly until the late 70’s. Speed was a bit of a problem in those days, but who knows. That time period was one of liberation and exploration on your instrument, breaking free of the I/V stranglehold, and he just followed suit. Dorman went on to an interesting proto-prog/Metal outfit in the early 70’s, Captain Beyond, definitely worth checking out.

 

[Cardinal Fang]

Uh, sorry, but that was IB’s original bassist, Lee Dorman, who hung in there from the band’s first album, through a couple of guitar personnel shake-ups, until the end of the band’s original run in 1971. The group reformed in the mid 70’s with second guitarist Erik Brann and drummer Ron Bushy(but keyboardist/lead vocalist/main writer Doug Ingle was absent, as well as Dorman). That’s when Taylor was involved. This rebooting of the band was not very successful, music styles had moved on, and without Ingle’s involvement, the new material was pretty weak. For the next couple of decades there was constant reshuffling of personnel, some earlier members coming and going along with newer replacements, the band slipped into being a psychedelic relic nostalgia band. Taylor died under mysterious circumstances in the mid-90’s. Dorman, whose bass work it is that you like, died in 2012. How old are you? Inna-Gadda-Da-Vida was one of the most massively big hits of the Psychedelic era, so much so that it became something of a joke, especially the drum solo(in an an era of countless gratuitous drum solos). Ringo Starr, who never recorded a solo before, spoofed/payed homage to it at the end of “Abbey Road”. When The Beatles noticed the impact of what another band was doing, that was pretty considerable. You knew it when you heard it, it was all over the place, primarily on the then newly developing FM rock radio stations. IB certainly had their following, but was also dismissed by many fellow musicians(and critics)as being a bunch of overblown psych cheese dressed up in day-glow trappings. I saw the ‘classic’ line-up live, just after their “Ball” album came out(I was just out of grade school); they played great, loud as hell(they had one of the first high-tech touring PA’s of the time), but other stuff like Led Zeppelin came along and rendered their sound dated. It’s funny how they had been touted(along with the somewhat similar band Steppenwolf)as being ‘heavy metal’, but I always just pegged both as psychedelic hard rock(the term ‘heavy metal’ really hadn’t come into common usage yet back in their day). As a bassist, yeah, I always dug what Dorman was doing, very active and melodic, obviously influenced by McCartney, Jameson, Kaye, and Osborne. That style was developing all over the place in that time period, you can hear it in the work of BS&T’s Jim Fielder, Vanilla Fudge’s Tim Bogert, Harvey Brooks, Canned Heat’s Larry Taylor, and JPJ, among others. Lastly, I seriously don’t think Dorman was coked out; that didn’t really come in predominantly until the late 70’s. Speed was a bit of a problem in those days, but who knows. That time period was one of liberation and exploration on your instrument, breaking free of the I/V stranglehold, and he just followed suit. Dorman went on to an interesting proto-prog/Metal outfit in the early 70’s, Captain Beyond, definitely worth checking out.

Cool, thanks for the clarification on who the bass player actually was. I guess I should have looked at Wikipedia or something first.

This was before my time, I'm only 42, but I was exposed to Iron Butterfly's music when I was a teenager. There was a local classic rock radio station that played In-a-gadda-da-vida every Friday night at ten pm and I looked forward to it all week long. At some point I walked into a record store and bought the album (on tape).

I'll give the other bands you named as examples a listen today, especially Captain Beyond.

Thanks for responding and sharing your knowledge. I've been curious about this for years and years and this forum seems like the best place to get some answers.

 

[Michedelic]

Cool, thanks for the clarification on who the bass player actually was. I guess I should have looked at Wikipedia or something first.

This was before my time, I'm only 42, but I was exposed to Iron Butterfly's music when I was a teenager. There was a local classic rock radio station that played In-a-gadda-da-vida every Friday night at ten pm and I looked forward to it all week long. At some point I walked into a record store and bought the album (on tape).

I'll give the other bands you named as examples a listen today, especially Captain Beyond.

Thanks for responding and sharing your knowledge. I've been curious about this for years and years and this forum seems like the best place to get some answers.

I mentioned Harvey Brooks, one of the great but overlooked bassists of the era; even though he did a lot of sessions and extensive work with Bob Dylan, these two albums are what he's best known for...



Just to make sure you understand, 'Kaye and Osborn' are Carol Kaye and Joe Osborn, the two icons of the LA session scene of the 60's and 70's, heard on more songs than you'll ever know...

probably his most notable track(especially the end part)...

Carol Kaye was known for many things, but her work with the Beach Boys is the most prominent...

 

[Cardinal Fang]

Wow, I haven't listened to the Beach Boys since I was thirteen or so and those songs really take me back. I'm going to get get my hands on those albums again soon. The bass at the beginning of Good Vibrations is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for. Don't know if I'm describing this in 'proper' terms but the bass is a melodic counterpoint to the vocals yet still with the drums. At least that's what I hear, anyway... That's a bass line that makes me want to go down to the basement and figure it out.

I've heard of Carol Kaye and Joe Osborn, probably read about them in a bass player-style magazine but you hit the nail on the head: "the two icons of the LA session scene of the 60's and 70's, heard on more songs than you'll ever know...".

"Aquarius" has been a favorite of mine for a long time. And oh my lord when it changes completely around the half way point, that's some funky bass right there.

I just realized that while I've listened to a lot of music from this era over the years I never paid real close attention to and analyzed it like I do most music. You know, to see if there's something cool I can pick up and add to my repertoire.

I have more listening to do to the songs you posted, thanks for taking the time to do it. Now I need to fix my first post...

 

[JimK]

Captain Beyond's debut is an absolute must...got that album on Xmas '72 (same day I was given my 1st bass).
I can still vividly recall putting their LP on my turntable & hearing Bobby Caldwell's opening groove in 5.

 

[Michedelic]

I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention the Wrecking Crew documentary, available on DVD and I-tunes. It was put together by Denny Tedesco, the son of one of the principal guitarists of the lauded collective of LA session players, Tommy Tedesco. Denny started staging interviews with his father and fellow musicians when Tommy’s health started to fail, and Denny realized that so many fascinating stories would be lost, especially when some of the others started to fade away. It turned into a 15 year labor of love, fund raising, private ‘work-in-progress’ screenings, and song licensing headaches, but he has an important slice of American music history to show for it. These people played on everything, and played anything from gooey pop to acid rock to surf, jazz, soundtracks, and country, often ghosting for well known bands. It will blow your mind, regardless of what music you’re into. Another doc along those lines is “Muscle Shoals”, about a similar crew that figured large in southern soul and pop hits. Both are highly recommended.

 

[JimK]

Both of those were on Netflix...that's where I watched them.
(Eventually bought both).