Looking for advice on a little rig

RyanJD

RyanJD

Apr 19, 2011
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Iowa
#1
Hello TBers, it's been an age since I've had an amp behind me while playing. I'm an active church bassist, playing in two different ministry bands. I've lived with direct-out to FoH and support from a stage monitor (IEMs as well, recently... more on that later...) for the last 3 or so years. I used to play with a rig behind me, but long story short, someone else used my gear when I wasn't there, plugged my personal GK MB200 into the church's Carvin head and fried both. So, I lived with the DI setup until I got used to it.
Well it's been a while and I've decided I would like to be able to feel the bass again. At least in the main church band I'm in. The other band contains less members (I.E., not as loud) and plays in a much smaller room. The DI set up is fine there. The main band, which I just joined, plays in a very large auditorium and uses a personal IEM system. I've got a set up I like, but I just miss feeling the bass like I used to when I had a speaker behind me. I think it genuinely helped me get more into the music.

So my question is two-fold:
Does anyone else use an IEM system in addition to a rig behind them?
I'm guessing it's fairly uncommon. Our guitar player has an amp on stage, as well as the monitors. Maybe it's weird, but I'd like to do the same. And because I don't need a rig to fill the whole room, instead it's just for me personally, I don't need anything grand. I'm thinking in the 300w range.
What are some good options for a ~300w rig for about as many dollars?
I see so many old GK/Peavey/Carvin/Ampeg amps used that are cheap and have had good reviews back in their day. Many with comments on great reliability. I'd like to get something old and cheap that will sound decent (feeling it is more important than hearing it, since I can hear what I want in my IEMs) and last for a long time. But I don't know where to start. I enjoyed my MB200, but I don't think I'd buy another one. As far as cabs, I'm leaning toward a 2x10 or a 1x15. I like the idea of the 2x10 sitting height-wise, to get some sound off the ground as well. I don't want/need two cabs at this point. Should I get a 4 ohm cab, or an 8 ohm, in case I ever do want to expand? There are just so many options on everything these days.
In any case, I appreciate any thoughts and suggestions. Thanks.
 
Last edited:
#2
RyanJD said:
Hello TBers, it's been an age since I've had an amp behind me while played. I'm an active church bassist, playing in two different ministry bands. I've lived with direct-out to FoH and support from a stage monitor (IEMs as well, recently... more on that later...) for the last 3 or so years. I used to play with a rig behind me, but long story short, someone else used my gear when I wasn't there, plugged my personal GK MB200 into the church's Carvin head and fried both. So, I lived with the DI setup until I got used to it.
Well it's been a while and I've decided I would like to be able to feel the bass again. At least in the main church band I'm in. The other band contains less members (I.E., not as loud) and plays in a much smaller room. The DI set up is fine there. The main band, which I just joined, plays in a very large auditorium and uses a personal IEM system. I've got a set up I like, but I just miss feeling the bass like I used to when I had a speaker behind me. I think it genuinely helped me get more into the music.

So my question is two-fold:
Does anyone else use an IEM system in addition to a rig behind them?
I'm guessing it's fairly uncommon. Our guitar player has an amp on stage, as well as the monitors. Maybe it's weird, but I'd like to do the same. And because I don't need a rig to fill the whole room, instead it's just for me personally, I don't need anything grand. I'm thinking in the 300w range.
What are some good options for a ~300w rig for about as many dollars?
I see so many old GK/Peavey/Carvin/Ampeg amps used that are cheap and have had good reviews back in their day. Many with comments on great reliability. I'd like to get something old and cheap that will sound decent (feeling it is more important than hearing it, since I can hear what I want in my IEMs) and last for a long time. But I don't know where to start. I enjoyed my MB200, but I don't think I'd buy another one. As far as cabs, I'm leaning toward a 2x10 or a 1x15. I like the idea of the 2x10 sitting height-wise, to get some sound off the ground as well. I don't want/need two cabs at this point. Should I get a 4 ohm cab, or an 8 ohm, in case I ever do want to expand? There are just so many options on everything these days.
In any case, I appreciate any thoughts and suggestions. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I would be somewhat surprised if your church is receptive to you using an amp, especially a large one. A benefit of IEMs is they eliminate the need for an amp. In general the less sound generated on stage, the better the sound will be for the audience.

Amps can serve a couple of purposes. 1) If the bass signal is derived from a post EQ DI or a mic'ed speaker, the amp is significantly shaping the sound. If the bassists doesn't like the tone, he/she can simply reach for the amp and make an adjustment. Of course you should be mindful that this will likely change the house sound and everyone else's monitor mix 2) If the player does not use quality sealed IEMs, he/she will hear the amp. This tends to a feel a bit more natural than IEMs. IMHO the better solution is to use a quality custom IEM, ensure you have a good mix, and get comfortable using IEMs. Because the IEMs are in a closed (essentially virtual) acoustic space, the experience is not degraded by poor acoustics and the development of a diffuse field. As a result, the sound can be studio quality if IEMs are properly implemented. 3) At higher volume levels, an amp can provide some tactile inputs (you feel the sound). Although this may improve the experience for the player, unfortunately the high volume required to feel the sound can greatly degrade the listening experience for other musicians and the audience. There are tactile transducer available that are designed to simulate the experience of a loud amp without adding high SPL. Take a look at the Eich Bass Board.
 
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#4
Wasnex said:
I would be somewhat surprised if your church is receptive to you using an amp, especially a large one. A benefit of IEMs is they eliminate the need for an amp. In general the less sound generated on stage, the better the sound will be for the audience.

Amps can serve a couple of purposes. 1) If the bass signal is derived from a post EQ DI or a mic'ed speaker, the amp is significantly shaping the sound. If the bassists doesn't like the tone, he/she can simply reach for the amp and make an adjustment. Of course you should be mindful that this will likely change the house sound and everyone else's monitor mix 2) If the player doesn't not use quality sealed IEMs, he/she will hear the amp. This tends to a feel a bit more natural than IEMs. IMHO the better solution is to use a quality custom IEM, ensure you have a good mix, and get comfortable using IEMs. Because the IEMs are in a closed (essentially virtual) acoustic space, the experience is not degraded by poor acoustics and the development of a diffuse field. As a result, the sound can be studio quality if IEMs are properly implemented. 3) At higher volume levels, an amp can provide some tactile inputs (you feel the sound). Although this may improve the experience for the player, unfortunately the high volume required to feel the sound can greatly degrade the listening experience for other musicians and the audience. There are tactile transducer available that are designed to simulate the experience of a loud amp without adding high SPL. Take a look at the Eich Bass Board.
Click to expand...

Hey Wasnex, thanks for the insightful reply. My plan was to use the separate out on my DI to send a signal to the amp and a signal to the board. This way my amp settings are completely independent of my signal out. (Thought process being, I can dial in a lot of lows to help feel my sound.)

My IEMs were cheap. As in, $50 cheap. https://www.amazon.com/MEE-audio-Universal-Fit-Noise-Isolating-Detachable/dp/B00SLVB71Q
I like them a lot. I think they deliver huge bang for buck. But I'm not going to drop several hundred to get an exceptional pair. These do just fine.
I get what you're saying about adding speakers to the stage is not necessarily a good thing. And (now that I think about it) this is especially true if the signal going to the mains is different than the signal coming from the amp. Like I had intended.
I don't know. I think the church BL would be willing to give it a shot though. Our stage is very large, and I'm probably 100 ft or so from any audience member. We also play loud during our services, so I doubt a little 300 watt rig behind me would make much difference. I'll need to consider it more.

Edit: Other thought... maybe I could put it to my side so the amp is point across the stage, rather than at the audience. It would probably end up bouncing most the sound off the drum cage actually... Hmmm...

JKos said:
Maybe what you need is one of the shaker platforms to stand on. You could feed the kick into it, as well.

I can't think of some exact product names at the moment. Wasnex mentioned the Eich, but I think there are others, too.

Here's a DIY thread here on TB: DIY bass shaker footrest for practice

- John
Click to expand...

Well, these seem kind of hokey to me. But maybe I shouldn't knock it until I try it...
 
#5
Part of the problem is that the subs are built into the stage, but not the part of the stage I'm standing on. I'm on concrete and I'm feeling almost nothing, aside from the kick.

10-second MS Paint diagram, top down view:

cdg.png


The proportions and placement aren't 100%, but you get the idea.
 
#6
RyanJD said:
Hey Wasnex, thanks for the insightful reply. My plan was to use the separate out on my DI to send a signal to the amp and a signal to the board. This way my amp settings are completely independent of my signal out. (Thought process being, I can dial in a lot of lows to help feel my sound.)

My IEMs were cheap. As in, $50 cheap. https://www.amazon.com/MEE-audio-Universal-Fit-Noise-Isolating-Detachable/dp/B00SLVB71Q
I like them a lot. I think they deliver huge bang for buck. But I'm not going to drop several hundred to get an exceptional pair. These do just fine.
I get what you're saying about adding speakers to the stage is not necessarily a good thing. And (now that I think about it) this is especially true if the signal going to the mains is different than the signal coming from the amp. Like I had intended.
I don't know. I think the church BL would be willing to give it a shot though. Our stage is very large, and I'm probably 100 ft or so from any audience member. We also play loud during our services, so I doubt a little 300 watt rig behind me would make much difference. I'll need to consider it more.

Edit: Other thought... maybe I could put it to my side so the amp is point across the stage, rather than at the audience. It would probably end up bouncing most the sound off the drum cage actually... Hmmm...
Click to expand...

IMHO, The best thing you can do with that type of IEM is make sure you have the right size of seal. In my experience they can work fine within their limits.

If the church BL is willing to give it go, awesome! You might want to try it out, before you dump a bunch of cash on a new rig....well unless you just want a new rig. Often churches have very reverberate acoustics and the low end tends to build up. If this is the case, using an amp will only contribute to the mess. Please open this page and read about the diffuse field. Sound Fields : Definitions, Terms, Units, Measurements : Acoustic Glossary

Turning your speaker sideways will only direct the mids and highs. As frequency goes down, dispersion becomes omnidirectional. In addition to being omnidirectional, low frequencies carry a lot of energy and take an extended time to decay. Consider how these factors impact the formation of a low frequency diffuse field.
 
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#7
RyanJD said:
Part of the problem is that the subs are built into the stage, but not the part of the stage I'm standing on. I'm on concrete and I'm feeling almost nothing, aside from the kick.

10-second MS Paint diagram, top down view:

View attachment 2931021

The proportions and placement aren't 100%, but you get the idea.
Click to expand...

IMHO you would be better off with a tactile transducer are something similar to a Rumble Seat. Products - ButtKicker Transducers - TheButtKicker.com
EICH Amplification :
Euphonic Amplifiers EA Rumble Seat Speaker Cab (SKU 5591C)



If you get a speaker that is the right size for a seat, you might be able to get the feel without cranking your volume.
 
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#9
RyanJD said:
Hello TBers, it's been an age since I've had an amp behind me while playing. I'm an active church bassist, playing in two different ministry bands. I've lived with direct-out to FoH and support from a stage monitor (IEMs as well, recently... more on that later...) for the last 3 or so years. I used to play with a rig behind me, but long story short, someone else used my gear when I wasn't there, plugged my personal GK MB200 into the church's Carvin head and fried both. So, I lived with the DI setup until I got used to it.
Well it's been a while and I've decided I would like to be able to feel the bass again. At least in the main church band I'm in. The other band contains less members (I.E., not as loud) and plays in a much smaller room. The DI set up is fine there. The main band, which I just joined, plays in a very large auditorium and uses a personal IEM system. I've got a set up I like, but I just miss feeling the bass like I used to when I had a speaker behind me. I think it genuinely helped me get more into the music.

So my question is two-fold:
Does anyone else use an IEM system in addition to a rig behind them?
I'm guessing it's fairly uncommon. Our guitar player has an amp on stage, as well as the monitors. Maybe it's weird, but I'd like to do the same. And because I don't need a rig to fill the whole room, instead it's just for me personally, I don't need anything grand. I'm thinking in the 300w range.
What are some good options for a ~300w rig for about as many dollars?
I see so many old GK/Peavey/Carvin/Ampeg amps used that are cheap and have had good reviews back in their day. Many with comments on great reliability. I'd like to get something old and cheap that will sound decent (feeling it is more important than hearing it, since I can hear what I want in my IEMs) and last for a long time. But I don't know where to start. I enjoyed my MB200, but I don't think I'd buy another one. As far as cabs, I'm leaning toward a 2x10 or a 1x15. I like the idea of the 2x10 sitting height-wise, to get some sound off the ground as well. I don't want/need two cabs at this point. Should I get a 4 ohm cab, or an 8 ohm, in case I ever do want to expand? There are just so many options on everything these days.
In any case, I appreciate any thoughts and suggestions. Thanks.
Click to expand...

You probably have this figured out by now.
But I play with a cl micro Ampeg head 10watt into a 4x10HE 1985 cabinet just enough to feel it. IEM do the rest. I also DI bass to FOH at home I have a 2x10 cabinet and just carry the head works great for me.
 
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