Making fast runs more expressive

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bramvdhoeven

Apr 11, 2022
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#1
What are some patterns and techniques I can use to practice getting into faster runs without losing musicality?
I can't help but feel like a lot of guitarists and bassists can sound a bit random or dry when they play fast stuff.
I love the kind of stuff Jaco did, but even him in a live setting could sound too random and struggling.
 
#4
Lee Moses said:
...make a passage say all it should say.
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Yes, or make it say no more or less than it should try to say in the time available. I think this topic is "phrasing".
I've never studied it, but we know when it's lacking because it sounds mindless and random, as the original poster said.
So I would try to research the topic "phrasing".
 
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#5
For me it’s all about note choice. Developing bassists usually develop speed before harmonic compatibility. It’s great to work on scales for run material, but scales have two half steps, and if you hit the wrong one, it severely clashes. Chords are safer, but three notes isn’t much of a run. Pentatonix is usually my source of choice. It is basically the major or minor scale without the half steps.

And for the record, runs don’t have to go in order. You are allowed to jump around intervallically.
 
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#6
bramvdhoeven said:
What are some patterns and techniques I can use to practice getting into faster runs without losing musicality?
I can't help but feel like a lot of guitarists and bassists can sound a bit random or dry when they play fast stuff.
I love the kind of stuff Jaco did, but even him in a live setting could sound too random and struggling.
Click to expand...
Depends on if your runs are the main course, or just a fill. Periodically not hitting an expected down beat but hit either on the upbeat before or after the downbeat is simple easy expressive tact fast or slow. Triplets

Something else I do is when I have a target note, the note played before the target is above the target the pitch if I’m below the Target. If I’m coming down I play one note below the target.

Simple stuff, but you will need work out the intervals to make sense. Try staring with a half step then a whole step on either side of the target note.
 
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#7
I have always viewed fast runs as “in between” filler for longer held , more expressive notes.

Many seem to undervalue the expressiveness of time variations

I suppose if you absolutely need to keep speeding , you can use trills and hammer ons to create motion while emphasizing a single note for a longer period of time

Another point often made in melodic development is to follow big leaps or arpeggios with stepwise motion
 
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#9
Some suggestions for the practice room:
  • Take any scale, pattern or arpeggios you are practicing now and play every other note slurred
  • Play ascending passages with crescendos and descending passages with decrescendos; then do the opposite
  • Practice single-string scales using slurs up and down; then pracrtice slurs from the open string to each note of the scale
  • Play four-note patterns in groups of three; play three-note patterns in groups of four
  • Practice familiar melodies or apreggios using octave dsplacement
  • Play passages with the metronome set at 40 bpm or lower and use the click on each beat of the measure
 
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#13
Making a run more expressive is done by having control over what you are playing. If a run is at your "speed limit", you're going to be using all your energy and focus just to keep up - you will have no control other than getting all the notes in about the right place. If you want to play fast and have expression, you need to up your speed limit so that the "fast run" is not at your limit. This is something that could take a lot of work to achieve.

I play with a lot of different drummers. One of them likes to play "impressive" fills. Trouble is, he's often just about skilled enough to pull them off - he's at his limit. The result is, he does the fill, and the next bar (or 4) we get to spend getting the groove back on track. It's much more impressive to play a simple fill or run and do it well than to almost pull off one with a higher degree of difficulty.

So work on being fluid. Build your speed slowly - don't try to be Speed Racer all at once - it'll come with time. When you're ready (but not before) pull out that fast, impressive run. Until then, be a solid, steady bass player - you can get plenty of calls to play without being fast if you're solid with what you can do.

There are a million Yngwie wannabe's that can play lightning fast and sound kinda like Yngwie. There is only one guy that really sounds like David Gilmour.
 
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#14
mambo4 said:
I have always viewed fast runs as “in between” filler for longer held , more expressive notes.

Many seem to undervalue the expressiveness of time variations

I suppose if you absolutely need to keep speeding , you can use trills and hammer ons to create motion while emphasizing a single note for a longer period of time

Another point often made in melodic development is to follow big leaps or arpeggios with stepwise motion
Click to expand...

Great observation that it's easy to get stuck in repeated 16ths (swing or not).
Using breathing room and working with intricate syncopation should give it some more interest. Yesterday I was mimicking some fast hip hop rap rhythms. Those work well for faster tempo's!

It's not that I absolutely need speeding, but I want to master it because I know it'll give me more options.
 
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#15
micguy said:
Making a run more expressive is done by having control over what you are playing. If a run is at your "speed limit", you're going to be using all your energy and focus just to keep up - you will have no control other than getting all the notes in about the right place. If you want to play fast and have expression, you need to up your speed limit so that the "fast run" is not at your limit. This is something that could take a lot of work to achieve.

I play with a lot of different drummers. One of them likes to play "impressive" fills. Trouble is, he's often just about skilled enough to pull them off - he's at his limit. The result is, he does the fill, and the next bar (or 4) we get to spend getting the groove back on track. It's much more impressive to play a simple fill or run and do it well than to almost pull off one with a higher degree of difficulty.

So work on being fluid. Build your speed slowly - don't try to be Speed Racer all at once - it'll come with time. When you're ready (but not before) pull out that fast, impressive run. Until then, be a solid, steady bass player - you can get plenty of calls to play without being fast if you're solid with what you can do.

There are a million Yngwie wannabe's that can play lightning fast and sound kinda like Yngwie. There is only one guy that really sounds like David Gilmour.
Click to expand...
Point taken. increase your speed "pocket" so it's actually POSSIBLE to focus on expression. Then focus on it. but first learn it.

I feel like dynamics are an underrated subject among bass players.
When we're solid with the drums and have a nit of compression going there seems less need to vary, but I don't think that's necessarily the case.
 
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#16
micguy said:
Making a run more expressive is done by having control over what you are playing. If a run is at your "speed limit", you're going to be using all your energy and focus just to keep up - you will have no control other than getting all the notes in about the right place. If you want to play fast and have expression, you need to up your speed limit so that the "fast run" is not at your limit. This is something that could take a lot of work to achieve.

I play with a lot of different drummers. One of them likes to play "impressive" fills. Trouble is, he's often just about skilled enough to pull them off - he's at his limit. The result is, he does the fill, and the next bar (or 4) we get to spend getting the groove back on track. It's much more impressive to play a simple fill or run and do it well than to almost pull off one with a higher degree of difficulty.

So work on being fluid. Build your speed slowly - don't try to be Speed Racer all at once - it'll come with time. When you're ready (but not before) pull out that fast, impressive run. Until then, be a solid, steady bass player - you can get plenty of calls to play without being fast if you're solid with what you can do.

There are a million Yngwie wannabe's that can play lightning fast and sound kinda like Yngwie. There is only one guy that really sounds like David Gilmour.
Click to expand...
I'll agree with this. There's no point trying to impress people without the time continuing to flow. I'll add this -- there are a lot of players who don't know how to accommodate any fluctation in the groove or extended syncopation from the bass player, so "bending" the time depends a lot on context. It's often hard to hear the bass well enough to judge when a bassist is pushing or pulling against the beat. Some of the syncopations I can pull off handily in the practice room have fallen flat on the bandstand, so I've learned to leave them out of my solos. (I shed a bitter tear over that, but I'm over it now!)

Again, you can never go wrong working with the melodic themes of the piece you're playing.
 
#17
matthewbrown said:
I'll agree with this. There's no point trying to impress people without the time continuing to flow. I'll add this -- there are a lot of players who don't know how to accommodate any fluctation in the groove or extended syncopation from the bass player, so "bending" the time depends a lot on context. It's often hard to hear the bass well enough to judge when a bassist is pushing or pulling against the beat. Some of the syncopations I can pull off handily in the practice room have fallen flat on the bandstand, so I've learned to leave them out of my solos. (I shed a bitter tear over that, but I'm over it now!)

Again, you can never go wrong working with the melodic themes of the piece you're playing.
Click to expand...
True. But I think there's something to say for trying to get a band along with what you're playing and breaking some eggs you know?
The development of the bass also depends on how other musicians relate to it.
 
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#18
bramvdhoeven said:
to practice getting into faster runs without losing musicality?
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But what if that MUSICALITY does not ask for "faster runs?"
bramvdhoeven said:
I can't help but feel like a lot of guitarists and bassists
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I would not put together the guitarists and the bassists. Their roles are different.
bramvdhoeven said:
bassists can sound a bit random or dry when they play fast stuff.
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Yes, sometimes it does sound random.
One could easily notice that "randomness" while listening to tracks of young musicians - their bass lines or, even, compositions.
Let's say, after practicing at home, you have created a very nice bass riff. It sounds so Cooool, but...
What to do next?
Suddenly, a keyboard player offers another riff or a passage, or a chord progression, and, sooner or later, you get a COMPOSITION (of random parts.)
The same randomness could be felt in any bass-line with embellishments, runs, fill-ins, etc., that ignores the songs Mood, Texture, harmonic structure, other instruments, etc...
bramvdhoeven said:
I love the kind of stuff Jaco did,
Click to expand...
Do you play Jaco-like music?
bramvdhoeven said:
in a live setting could sound too random and struggling.
Click to expand...
Any live performance is different from a long, tedious, laborious, micro-meticulous (close-perfection) studio recordings.
Live means - right now, right here, without going back.
 
#20
bramvdhoeven said:
Yesterday I was mimicking some fast hip hop rap rhythms
Click to expand...

That reminds me of Tim Henson of polyphia basing his innovative guitar riffs on trap drum beats. If you can find a fast but expressive drum pattern, that could be a useful guide for phrasing

In point of fact many ethnic bass styles have their origins in drum patterns. The high - low drum parts becoming root-5th on the bass.

The is a book for hippie hand drummers called Hand Talk, which catalogs a bunch of African rhythms that could easily transfer into bass line rhythms
 
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