Mixed Drivers (pokety poke)

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#6
agedhorse said:
Done properly, with suitable engineering and analysis, mixing drivers can yield excellent results. Done poorly, the results are just as poor as the effort might suggest.
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Aaaaaaaaaaaand there it is.

Generally, cabs with a mid driver have a ported sub and a sealed mid.....or other physics compensations that are probably over my head. All of this isn't by accident. If a 4-10 cab and a 1-15 cab and a head with crossover were engineered to work together, it would sound amazing and be stupid expensive. None of those rigs exist that I am aware of. There may be a couple. But your stock Carvin, GK, Hartke, Mesa, etc. rigs are NOT designed that way. Your heroes sure APPEAR to be playing rigs like that on stage, don't they? Marketing. Pure and simple.

Now (sigh) AGAIN, you may end up having a mixed driver rig that sounds great, to YOUR ears, totally by accident. I think most of us who preach against such rigs have allowed for that possibility. That doesn't change the facts that a) that is purely by accident and b) a well-designed head and two nice matching cabs will always sound great right out of the box.
 
#8
two fingers said:
Aaaaaaaaaaaand there it is.

Generally, cabs with a mid driver have a ported sub and a sealed mid.....or other physics compensations that are probably over my head. All of this isn't by accident. If a 4-10 cab and a 1-15 cab and a head with crossover were engineered to work together, it would sound amazing and be stupid expensive. None of those rigs exist that I am aware of. There may be a couple. But your stock Carvin, GK, Hartke, Mesa, etc. rigs are NOT designed that way. Your heroes sure APPEAR to be playing rigs like that on stage, don't they? Marketing. Pure and simple.

Now (sigh) AGAIN, you may end up having a mixed driver rig that sounds great, to YOUR ears, totally by accident. I think most of us who preach against such rigs have allowed for that possibility. That doesn't change the facts that a) that is purely by accident and b) a well-designed head and two nice matching cabs will always sound great right out of the box.
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I'm going to disagree here, because I have designed a number of well received cabinet lines that were specifically designed to work well with mixed driver sizes from the very beginning and have the engineering/analysis to back it up. When you say stock Mesa cabinets are NOT designed this way, I am telling you that this just is not true, and the specific example I will put forth is the Subway 112 and 115 which were designed as such and actually preform better mixed than a pair of 112's or 115's for some applications. Phase response is very close, system Q is almost critically damped, mechanical power handling and power bandwidth are very close, but the 12 has a different mid voicing that combines well with the 115.

Please beware of making universal proclamations that exclude sounding good except by accident until you understand better the physics and engineering behind such designs. Mixed driver size cabinets can sound very good or very poor depending on the effort and engineering allocated to the design(s). I am not the only one who has successfully accomplished this in the past, nor am I likely to be the only one in the future either.
 
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#9
agedhorse said:
I'm going to disagree here, because I have designed a number of well received cabinet lines that were specifically designed to work well with mixed driver sizes from the very beginning and have the engineering/analysis to back it up. When you say stock Mesa cabinets are NOT designed this way, I am telling you that this just is not true, and the specific example I will put forth is the Subway 112 and 115 which were designed as such and actually preform better mixed than a pair of 112's or 115's for some applications. Phase response is very close, system Q is almost critically damped, mechanical power handling and power bandwidth are very close, but the 12 has a different mid voicing that combines well with the 115.

Please beware of making universal proclamations that exclude sounding good except by accident until you understand better the physics and engineering behind such designs. Mixed driver size cabinets can sound very good or very poor depending on the effort and engineering allocated to the design(s). I am not the only one who has successfully accomplished this in the past, nor am I likely to be the only one in the future either.
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1) I'm certainly not going to argue with you. That would be dumb. :cool:

2) Your point was kind of my point too, except.....

3) I was unaware of the Mesa designs.

Again, this was my point.... other than the parts where I was wrong. :thumbsup:

IF they are DESIGNED to work together, then sure. Since you brought it up, are you aware of ANY 1-15 cabs and 4-10 cabs that were engineered from the ground up with phase and other physics concerns in mind to work together both running full-range from the same head? I think that's primarily where the arguments are. 1-15 and 2-10 rigs get some people going too. But most of our arguments/debates here are about a 4-10 cab stacked on top of a 1-15 cab.

Unless you prove me wrong, which is totally possible, I am going to maintain that the vast majority of 1-15 cabs and 2-10 or 4-10 cabs were not designed to both be run full-range from the same head and work together. AT LEAST a crossover should be used. But even then, results may not be terrific.

So, school me. Are the average Carvin, GK, Avatar, Hartke, Ampeg etc. cabs with different driver configurations designed to be run with other configurations all full- range from the same head?

My apologies for generalizing too much.
 
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#10
FourBanger said:
Yes, he explained that both can work just fine with a crossover.

:whistle:
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And you think the vast majority of those here who defend mixed driver cab stacks run a crossover? I could be wrong, but I think not. Most of them, in my view, plug them both full-range into the back of a stock Ampeg, Hartke, Carvin, GK or other head with no consideration for frequency whatsoever.
 
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#14
HaphAsSard said:
lol, this thread is far more entertaining than the other one!
Be careful who you think you're schooling, folks...
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Actually I was initially trying to agree with @agedhorse . I just got a couple of things wrong. I not only admitted it, I apologized for the generalization. But I never attempted to school someone who designs bass gear for a living. That'd be silly.
 
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#16
I do agree, for the most part, that 115 & 410 combinations are generally not a good match. Not because they couldn't be, but it requires a pretty substantial 15" driver that is also fairly sensitive to keep up with a typical 410.

I have done a few custom 115-410 combinations but we are talking about purpose built cabinets and very expensive 15" drivers (like JBL 2226, EVX-15, etc.)

I can't comment on other manufacturer's cabinets. I don't know enough about them anyway) but I would expect a good portion to have thought about this topic in depth and have the resources to make good design choices also.
 
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