My turn to vent...

BaileyMan

BaileyMan

Jan 8, 2012
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#1
Long time reader of the Band Management forum, first time poster...

The TL/DR version...drummer/BL has unrealistic expectations and lacks professionalism. What he's looking for doesn't match with what he's offering, what I've got to offer considering the situation, and I'm gonna bounce...

Now for the longer version...
He wants pro-level but is far from that level himself and with essentially no pay. If you want a pro, be a pro, hire a pro, and pay a pro like s/he deserves. Give me an Effing break! I'm outta here!

I've been jamming with this drummer (as a sub for his band) and a few other random cats on a pretty regular basis for a couple months or so now. I just subbed for the band this past weekend. The horn players were impressed and came up to me afterward and congratulated me on a job well done, saying things like, "Great job! It's not everyone that can pull that off!" It was unpaid, but I was willing to give him the first one free, especially as I'm working on building my skills and resume as a sub.

We "rehearsed" last night, and I finally have had enough...

Here are the deets...
  1. He want's to use me as a sub. - Fine, not a problem, happy to sub, but you gotta give me something if you want me to stick around. A list of tunes and a paid gig more often than once every 3 months would be a good start.
  2. He wants me to rehearse every week while he more or less auditions new players who don't know the style, but are willing to learn it. Um. No thanks. At least he's kicking down some cash for my shared studio space. Get your own effing bass player to audition cats.
  3. When he does let me know the tunes he wants me to play, he doesn't have charts for them - No biggie, I can chart out tunes. However, I invest a lot of time charting and learning tunes on short notice for no pay, many of which have different arrangements than the originals, so they're not entirely correct anyhow.
  4. He wants me to know the tunes without charts. Sure, when you're paying me as your regular bass player and we've got gigs at the respectable local venues and not at an empty, overpriced bar on a Friday night when we're the only act going on at 11.
  5. He wants us to practice more at home so that we can be tighter. I'm a fan of woodshedding, but if you want us to be tighter, lets work on getting a solid groove together during rehearsals instead of playing the tunes so they sound "close". If we only ever practice them so they're close, we'll only ever perform them close too.
  6. You want us to work on nailing every change? How about you bring the singer in...we play lots of tunes with long ostinato sections. I'm not great at counting 16 or 32 measures of the same lick without getting lost, but I can listen well.
  7. His set lists are "confidential", which I just find amusing. We play the same songs that every Old school, funk, soul, R&B band plays, and besides doesn't the confidentiality go out the window as soon as you perform the tunes live?
Here's how it's going down moving forward...
  1. Hire me, pay me as a full time band member and I'll put up with the poopiee.
  2. Keep me on as sub, give me at least two weeks notice with details like pay, time, place, set list, pay, who's providing the backline, etc. Did I mention pay?
  3. Give me at least one rehearsal with the full band (I won't even charge extra for it).
  4. Deal with the fact that I'm using charts.
  5. Understand that I am a very competent player, but I'm no Pino Palladino, James Jamerson, Duck Dunn, Bob Babbitt, Fred Thomas, Carol Kaye, Will Lee, Anthony Jackson, etc. I'm a guy with a day job who loves playing and studying bass and who wants to achieve some level of professionalism with music, and I'm getting there...
  6. Or I can politely bow out. No need to rage quit, I don't have that much energy invested in it. I'd fire him, but it's his project. I'd also hire him. He's a decent drummer, generally a good guy, just kind of a lame BL. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he just needs to mature a bit, but I'm past playing with immature individuals.
OK, if you've read this far, thanks for sticking around! Thanks for letting me vent. I feel better now!
 
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#2
I feel for you but I don't see how you have any leverage. If you're subbing, you can't call many of the shots aside from whether or not you'll accept the terms and conditions of the gig. If not, don't take the gig.

Key thing here is to keep your integrity intact. Probably involves walking away from a gig situation with this guy.
 
#3
BaileyMan said:
Long time reader of the Band Management forum, first time poster...

The TL/DR version...drummer/BL has unrealistic expectations and lacks professionalism. What he's looking for doesn't match with what he's offering, what I've got to offer considering the situation, and I'm gonna bounce...
Click to expand...

Based on his list of requirements, he sounds inexperienced. Doesn't understand what it takes to retain people. I have a feeling that even if you did stick with him, there would be other problems such as not getting paid well, turnover in other rehearsals, stalling, and perhaps not even many gigs.

The leading indicators are that you are in a situation that will likely not be successful in the long run.

Time to bounce, like you said. You can offer being a sub though, but it's going to have to be on your terms. And I don't think this will short you -- his list of demands are such that anyone capable of subbing well will likely not agree to such terms. Plus, when you need a sub, your standards tend to be a bit lower due to not much time to find someone to replace your first call guy. If you are avail when he needs a sub, and do a good job, there is a good chance he'll use you out of necessity.

So, list your terms of being a sub, and then let him make HIS decision about whether to keep you. If he doesn't get back to you, leave it at that. If he does, you win.

I never advocate rage quitting as you want lots of people who have your number in their phone for when they need you. Also, the other musicians are watching you, and they have their own network. You want them to recommend you for other projects - probably after they leave this one if my prognosis is correct. Be a statesman and leave on gracious terms that leave your options open, while expanding your network.
 
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#4
DirtDog said:
I feel for you but I don't see how you have any leverage. If you're subbing, you can't call many of the shots aside from whether or not you'll accept the terms and conditions of the gig. If not, don't take the gig.

Key thing here is to keep your integrity intact. Probably involves walking away from a gig situation with this guy.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I can either accept the terms or not. The only leverage I have is that I'm a solid player, reliable, will show up prepared, and will get the job done with few rehearsals. Not every bass player can do that, and certainly there are many who can do it better than me...

PauFerro said:
Based on his list of requirements, he sounds inexperienced. Doesn't understand what it takes to retain people. I have a feeling that even if you did stick with him, there would be other problems such as not getting paid well, turnover in other rehearsals, stalling, and perhaps not even many gigs.

I never advocate rage quitting as you want lots of people who have your number in their phone for when they need you. Also, the other musicians are watching you, and they have their own network. You want them to recommend you for other projects - probably after they leave this one if my prognosis is correct. Be a statesman and leave on gracious terms that leave your options open, while expanding your network.
Click to expand...

Agreed also re: being inexperienced and the importance of remaining professional when saying "no thanks". No need or desire to burn any bridges. I can let him know what I need and he can decide from there. It's no skin off my back. I'm not hungry for what he's offering...If we can make it work, great. A little communication can go a long way, and that's the next step. It will also give me a take on how he's able to handle the more challenging aspects of managing band relationships. I see it as a litmus test.
 
#7
In my world:

- a sub does not rehearse with the band, unless it is to go over things for the sub's benefit.
- a sub gets paid at least as well as any band member. Unless I am free, and doing a favor, I get paid.
- a sub can use notes to help them on tunes - but just reading off charts is not cool.

It doesn't sound like you are a sub. You are someone they want to use until/unless they find someone they like better.

Decide what you are willing to accept. Then politely have a discussion with BL and state your terms. The offer given to you by BL is something I would not take.
 
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#10
BaileyMan said:
For some reason seeing this quoted, made me laugh again and realize the sheer ridiculousness of the BL and this situation. Definitely will be ending the regular rehearsals with him and raising my rates if he wants me to sub...
Click to expand...
Maybe he keeps the set list confidential to give him an "edge" over other bands! :laugh:

Seriously, this is just silliness. It sounds like something Spinal Tap would do.
 
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#11
BaileyMan said:
Long time reader of the Band Management forum, first time poster...

The TL/DR version...drummer/BL has unrealistic expectations and lacks professionalism. What he's looking for doesn't match with what he's offering, what I've got to offer considering the situation, and I'm gonna bounce...

Now for the longer version...
He wants pro-level but is far from that level himself and with essentially no pay. If you want a pro, be a pro, hire a pro, and pay a pro like s/he deserves. Give me an Effing break! I'm outta here!

I've been jamming with this drummer (as a sub for his band) and a few other random cats on a pretty regular basis for a couple months or so now. I just subbed for the band this past weekend. The horn players were impressed and came up to me afterward and congratulated me on a job well done, saying things like, "Great job! It's not everyone that can pull that off!" It was unpaid, but I was willing to give him the first one free, especially as I'm working on building my skills and resume as a sub.

We "rehearsed" last night, and I finally have had enough...

Here are the deets...
  1. He want's to use me as a sub. - Fine, not a problem, happy to sub, but you gotta give me something if you want me to stick around. A list of tunes and a paid gig more often than once every 3 months would be a good start.
  2. He wants me to rehearse every week while he more or less auditions new players who don't know the style, but are willing to learn it. Um. No thanks. At least he's kicking down some cash for my shared studio space. Get your own effing bass player to audition cats.
  3. When he does let me know the tunes he wants me to play, he doesn't have charts for them - No biggie, I can chart out tunes. However, I invest a lot of time charting and learning tunes on short notice for no pay, many of which have different arrangements than the originals, so they're not entirely correct anyhow.
  4. He wants me to know the tunes without charts. Sure, when you're paying me as your regular bass player and we've got gigs at the respectable local venues and not at an empty, overpriced bar on a Friday night when we're the only act going on at 11.
  5. He wants us to practice more at home so that we can be tighter. I'm a fan of woodshedding, but if you want us to be tighter, lets work on getting a solid groove together during rehearsals instead of playing the tunes so they sound "close". If we only ever practice them so they're close, we'll only ever perform them close too.
  6. You want us to work on nailing every change? How about you bring the singer in...we play lots of tunes with long ostinato sections. I'm not great at counting 16 or 32 measures of the same lick without getting lost, but I can listen well.
  7. His set lists are "confidential", which I just find amusing. We play the same songs that every Old school, funk, soul, R&B band plays, and besides doesn't the confidentiality go out the window as soon as you perform the tunes live?
Here's how it's going down moving forward...
  1. Hire me, pay me as a full time band member and I'll put up with the poopiee.
  2. Keep me on as sub, give me at least two weeks notice with details like pay, time, place, set list, pay, who's providing the backline, etc. Did I mention pay?
  3. Give me at least one rehearsal with the full band (I won't even charge extra for it).
  4. Deal with the fact that I'm using charts.
  5. Understand that I am a very competent player, but I'm no Pino Palladino, James Jamerson, Duck Dunn, Bob Babbitt, Fred Thomas, Carol Kaye, Will Lee, Anthony Jackson, etc. I'm a guy with a day job who loves playing and studying bass and who wants to achieve some level of professionalism with music, and I'm getting there...
  6. Or I can politely bow out. No need to rage quit, I don't have that much energy invested in it. I'd fire him, but it's his project. I'd also hire him. He's a decent drummer, generally a good guy, just kind of a lame BL. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he just needs to mature a bit, but I'm past playing with immature individuals.
OK, if you've read this far, thanks for sticking around! Thanks for letting me vent. I feel better now!
Click to expand...



I'm a big fan of reciprocity. If you want something, you need to give something. It doesn't need to be 50/50 but there needs to be a balance.

I agree with a previous poster, the BL is inexperienced. Not sure what HIS issue might be but there is one.

Him not being forthcoming with so much, is not helping you as a person or as a member or even the band.

Explain this fact to him and mention you are thinking of passing on the job, maybe he will rethink, but any hesitation, walk. He sounds indecisive and obviously doesn't like confrontation.
 
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#13
First this...

BaileyMan said:
  1. He want's to use me as a sub. - Fine, not a problem, happy to sub, but you gotta give me something if you want me to stick around. A list of tunes and a paid gig more often than once every 3 months would be a good start.
  2. He wants me to rehearse every week while he more or less auditions new players who don't know the style, but are willing to learn it. Um. No thanks. At least he's kicking down some cash for my shared studio space. Get your own effing bass player to audition cats.
Click to expand...
It doesn't work that way. Period. And you shouldn't have any guilt or bad feelings whatsoever regarding your not complying. That's just plain nuts. Regular guy should be doing that, not you.

More importantly - why ARE you doing that?

BaileyMan said:
  1. Understand that I am a very competent player, but I'm no Pino Palladino, James Jamerson, Duck Dunn, Bob Babbitt, Fred Thomas, Carol Kaye, Will Lee, Anthony Jackson, etc. I'm a guy with a day job who loves playing and studying bass and who wants to achieve some level of professionalism with music, and I'm getting there...
Click to expand...
Second, I think there's an "ah-ha!" in there. Sounds like you're projecting that you're not the greatest and you don't intend to give this your all. IMO, that's great reason to be considered only as a sub. You sound confident at the start of your post, but then this stuff starts coming out :).

If you want the gig, I'd highly recommend getting past your feelings (anger/resentment) about it, and just letting him know nicely that you're going to pass on this opportunity. Make up your mind on what WOULD be acceptable to you, and present him with that if he's interested, but do it confidently. Like you'll kill the gig - but not with your current status. Then if you get the gig, kill it!

Oh yeah... and welcome :). If that came off as being flip, or snarky - my apologies. Just telling the truth as I see it and trying to be helpful. I've stayed in bands getting used and abused lots and lots of times. We all don't have to learn the hard way though.

Wishin ya the best!
 
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#15
Hey guys. Thanks for all the comments. I take them all to heart. @Joe Nerve, not taken as snarky or flip. I appreciate your honest take. There's something to be said for the attitude that we come in with. It's been great to gain some clarity the past few days about what I want and what I can give. I think you nailed it when you commented that it seems like I'm not giving it my all. I haven't been with this guy, because he hasn't given me a reason to, and it's not a project that I want to give it my all to.

Regarding some of the insecurities you picked up on, his comment to me about memorizing songs, definitely triggered old tapes that have played in my head as a less experienced musician. I can memorize tunes. I've done it before. If I wanted (I don't at the moment) and got the gig as his regular bass player, i'd totally kill it and he'd hardly know what hit him! :bassist:

P.s. One of his most memorable comments to me just before the gig was, "If I stop playing at some point, it's because I lost the beat." OK. Got it. Drummer may lose the beat...
 
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