Newbie designer looking for directions

[JC Vallejo]

Hi!

I'm working on my second cab build. As a little background, my first build was based in an Eminence Delta 15LF-4 (600w RMS, 4Ohms) and was performed in baltic birch plywood. I just followed the volume and the port size/qty suggested by Eminence. At the end the back had a lot of vibrations that I had to damp with 2" mineral wool plank covering all the inside and after that the cab sound fairly nice with first an Ampeg Portaflex PF350, then a Portaflex PF800 and now an SVT Pro 7.

My goals then were oriented to:
Test if a thin plywood cab assembled with just glue could handle this kind of task.
Make a single cab able to use most of the power of my first amp (350RMS@4ohms).
See if I could make a decent first approach to cab building.

I'm satisfied with that goals so I'm heading to my V2.0

This time I want to focus on something ahead:
Design something light and compact.
Think maybe on two cabs so I could use one for practice and small gigs and two cabs when I need a little extra (and get my SVT Pro 7 to work).
Learn about cab tuning and the whole nine yards.

My first thoughts are about using Eminence Kappalite 3010LF drivers, that according with the Eminence selection guide, these are good for bass guitar, lightweight (neodymium magnet), can handle low frequencies (Fs = 39Hz) and are rated for 450w RMS. From here I got my first question:

Considering that 2 drivers like those will get 4ohms and that I can't afford 4 or more drivers for a different array, is it a good approach trying to get a nice and powerful sound able to fit my trunk like this?

I have doubts because it's more common to see 4x10 or 8x10 arrays that surely most of them have cheaper and less powerful drivers than the Kappalite 3010LF but I'm not sure how better would be a commercial 4x10 or 8x10 compared with two 1x10 cabs like I'm thinking of.

Any feedback is welcome!

 

[BassmanPaul]

Turn right, then right again. Turn at the next right and right once more.

 

[Blues Bass 2]

You might want to look at another driver than the 3010LF . They cost almost as much as a 12" or 15" Kappalite LF . They also need a mid because they don't go very high even for bass guitar and have a low sensitivity so you don't get much volume for your watts . A pair of them with a good mid can sound great like the Fearless 210 cab but for one as a stand alone cab even on small gigs it would be better to have at least one 12" or even a 15 .

The Kappalite 3012 HO is a decent 12 for stand alone and I've had very good luck with the Deltalite 2012 II . Either would work well without a mid and have decent low end with far greater efficiency than the LF Kappalites . The Deltalite won't go as loud as the Kappalite but it still gets plenty loud for small gigs by itself . I also have used the Eminence data for porting cabs for their drivers but that's as far as I've gone .

 

[jazzbass_5]

I built a 4x10 using Eminence delta 10s handles 1400 watts and is loud as all get out, it's rear ported (designed after a Peavey TX410, because I owned one once and loved the sound) I ported it a bit differently than the original design and it's a great stand alone cab (no tweeter). Not sure how relevant this is to your build but the delta 10s are a great speaker too. Building 2 smaller 2x10s like it could be interesting. I have one that's fashioned after a Getz Benz 2x10 (below) thats light and and uses the deltas also. (Cab in the center of course). Good luck!

 

[JC Vallejo]

I built a 4x10 using Eminence delta 10s handles 1400 watts and is loud as all get out, it's rear ported (designed after a Peavey TX410, because I owned one once and loved the sound) I ported it a bit differently than the original design and it's a great stand alone cab (no tweeter). Not sure how relevant this is to your build but the delta 10s are a great speaker too. Building 2 smaller 2x10s like it could be interesting. I have one that's fashioned after a Getz Benz 2x10 (below) thats light and and uses the deltas also.

4x10 would need 16ohm drivers so I get 4 ohms on the cab? or for getting two 8 ohm 2x10 cabs?

 

[jazzbass_5]

4x10 would need 16ohm drivers so I get 4 ohms on the cab? or for getting two 8 ohm 2x10 cabs?

Or 4 ohm drivers, 2 each in series then the 2 each in parallel.
Mine are 2 - 8 ohm in parallel (so 4 ohms a side) and is configured with 2 inputs. Picture below, so, I have 2 - 4 ohm inputs and I run it with a preamp power amp setup. Channel 1 of the power amp drives one side and channel 2 the other. Or, if needed, since I used binding posts instead of 1/4 jack inputs, I can run the speaker inputs in series and use it as an 8 ohm cabinet.

 

[BogeyBass]

for compact cab you want decent sensitivity from the single driver, so a 2x10 or pair 1x10 wouldn't be a good route. more sensitivity is found with a 1x12 or 2x12. since the size is also still relatively compact and will fit into a moderate sized cabinet. benifit is up to 3db more of sensitivity and using more efficient speakers is almost like or can be like doubling power. likewise the drivers dont have to be earth shattering power handling, cause the power required to reach levels needed is much lower. keep in mind high power drivers with high excursion past the 5 to 6mm xmax will trade off high end response to have such a long magnet gap. and likewise sensitivity will drop. so yes you can dump 400 plus watts of power into them. but it basically takes that much power to make a single driver reach level needed. and a pair of lower xmax speakers would reach the same level and be able to get magic midrange and highs from a single driver, and not have to dump alot of power into a high excursion driver and also have to deal with a mid and crossover.

basically if you think a large 3.8 to 4 cubic foot 1x15 cab, you could put a 2x12 speakers into the same volume. and a pair of 96 to 97 db speakers will have 99 to 100 dB of sensitivity and good powerhandling. depending on what you consider " compact" a small 2x12 is very compact to me and works well as a single carry cabinet. likewise if you doubled up and had a pair of 2x12s. it would make a pretty powerful rig combined and likewise with almost 102/104 dB of sensitivity it wouldnt take much power at all to rattle the dishes in the kitchen

 

[JC Vallejo]

You might want to look at another driver than the 3010LF . They cost almost as much as a 12" or 15" Kappalite LF . They also need a mid because they don't go very high even for bass guitar and have a low sensitivity so you don't get much volume for your watts . A pair of them with a good mid can sound great like the Fearless 210 cab but for one as a stand alone cab even on small gigs it would be better to have at least one 12" or even a 15 .

The Kappalite 3012 HO is a decent 12 for stand alone and I've had very good luck with the Deltalite 2012 II . Either would work well without a mid and have decent low end with far greater efficiency than the LF Kappalites . The Deltalite won't go as loud as the Kappalite but it still gets plenty loud for small gigs by itself . I also have used the Eminence data for porting cabs for their drivers but that's as far as I've gone .

As far as I'm understanding, every time you get power double you get about +3dB, right? so in theory a 200w 95dB driver would be as loud as a 400w 92dB. Does it makes sense?

The thing that I'm noticing in the Eminence speaker guide is that most of the drivers with lower frequency are the ones with less sensitivity (you trade loud for low end, right?).

From here and considering what you're saying, the combined specs of the 3010LF (95.5dB, 450w RMS, 46Hz - 2Khz) might be not good for gigs, but a different like the Deltalite II 2512 (99.9dB, 250w RMS, 58Hz - 4.3Khz) would be better and I'm assuming that this 58Hz instead of 46Hz is the trade between power and low end. I'm I getting it good?

 

[JC Vallejo]

for compact cab you want decent sensitivity from the single driver, so a 2x10 or pair 1x10 wouldn't be a good route. more sensitivity is found with a 1x12 or 2x12. since the size is also still relatively compact and will fit into a moderate sized cabinet. benifit is up to 3db more of sensitivity and using more efficient speakers is almost like or can be like doubling power. likewise the drivers dont have to be earth shattering power handling, cause the power required to reach levels needed is much lower. keep in mind high power drivers with high excursion past the 5 to 6mm xmax will trade off high end response to have such a long magnet gap. and likewise sensitivity will drop. so yes you can dump 400 plus watts of power into them. but it basically takes that much power to make a single driver reach level needed. and a pair of lower xmax speakers would reach the same level and be able to get magic midrange and highs from a single driver, and not have to dump alot of power into a high excursion driver and also have to deal with a mid and crossover.

basically if you think a large 3.8 to 4 cubic foot 1x15 cab, you could put a 2x12 speakers into the same volume. and a pair of 96 to 97 db speakers will have 99 to 100 dB of sensitivity and good powerhandling. depending on what you consider " compact" a small 2x12 is very compact to me and works well as a single carry cabinet. likewise if you doubled up and had a pair of 2x12s. it would make a pretty powerful rig combined and likewise with almost 102/104 dB of sensitivity it wouldnt take much power at all to rattle the dishes in the kitchen

The more I read from you, guys I'm more convinced on going for a 12. I hope you can help me understand better from this comparison:

Using DELTA-12A (16ohms) 400w RMS, 98.3dB, 54Hz-5Khz, FS=55Hz so I would build a pair of 2x12" that will get me 4ohms that is the minimum that my gear can handle.
Pros I see: 1) Four 98.3dB drivers in a 2x12 array seems to be around the 102/104dB you mentioned. 2) I think 4x12 will handle a higher load before getting distortion.
Cons I see: 1) The cabinet will be twice as big and heavy than the second option. 2) Frequency seems to be higher but I'm not sure if I'm making a big deal thinking that it won't have a decent low end because I don't know yet the numbers VS the real feel, I mean how bad is getting for example 55Hz spec instead of 45Hz in a gig?

2. Using KAPPALITE 3012HO (8ohms) 400w RMS, 100.5dB, 51Hz - 3.5Khz, FS=52Hz so I would build a pair of 1x12" that will get me 4ohms.
Pros I see: 1) 100.5dB is the highest Eminence 12" driver rating. 2) The cabs will be very compact (81.1liters). 3) Neodymium driver will be light.
Cons I see: 1) I think that the pair of 1x12 array will get less dB than the previous option. 2) As far as I know the more drivers you have to distribute the load will get you less distortion but I'm not sure how would these two options behave.

Does this make any sense?

 

[JC Vallejo]

By the way, this is my first cab:

 

[BogeyBass]

The more I read from you, guys I'm more convinced on going for a 12. I hope you can help me understand better from this comparison:

Using DELTA-12A (16ohms) 400w RMS, 98.3dB, 54Hz-5Khz, FS=55Hz so I would build a pair of 2x12" that will get me 4ohms that is the minimum that my gear can handle.
Pros I see: 1) Four 98.3dB drivers in a 2x12 array seems to be around the 102/104dB you mentioned. 2) I think 4x12 will handle a higher load before getting distortion.
Cons I see: 1) The cabinet will be twice as big and heavy than the second option. 2) Frequency seems to be higher but I'm not sure if I'm making a big deal thinking that it won't have a decent low end because I don't know yet the numbers VS the real feel, I mean how bad is getting for example 55Hz spec instead of 45Hz in a gig?

2. Using KAPPALITE 3012HO (8ohms) 400w RMS, 100.5dB, 51Hz - 3.5Khz, FS=52Hz so I would build a pair of 1x12" that will get me 4ohms.
Pros I see: 1) 100.5dB is the highest Eminence 12" driver rating. 2) The cabs will be very compact (81.1liters). 3) Neodymium driver will be light.
Cons I see: 1) I think that the pair of 1x12 array will get less dB than the previous option. 2) As far as I know the more drivers you have to distribute the load will get you less distortion but I'm not sure how would these two options behave.

Does this make any sense?

yes that makes sense, and yes producing drivers with more xmax capability will decrease sensitivity, the trade off for more cone travel and lowend performance. longer magnet gap and longer voice coil reduces efficiency. also increases inductance of voicecoil or Le parameter of a speaker. inductance has a low pass function so large voice coils can reduce highend another trade off. so with high power, high excursion drivers for musical instrument use are often paired with a midrange driver for mids and highs.

likewise opposite end of the scale is if you make the voice coil short, you get really great sensitivity. but the tradeoff is you have less cone travel and at low frequency they will distort quickly. so with the delta 12 you were loooking at yes sensitivity is good, but the cone travel or xmax is small and it distorts easily at low frequency. so eventually we make trade offs to get good sensitivity and cone travel. and likewise with high excursion drivers achieve superb low frequency performance, but requires more power. not so much an issue with today's high powered amplifiers for the most part. eventually depending on the amount of spl you need. it takes more drivers regardless of how much power they handle to reach high sound pressure levels. and levels needed varys from moderate to ridiculous depending upon players of course and band situation.

and xmax on a speaker data sheet shows you how many millimeters a voice coil can travel and when the speaker has reached 10% distortion. so its kinda considered the end of the road for accepted amount of distortion/ and system sound pressure you care to hear and not damage the speaker as well. Xlim shows you how much more you got till actual driver damage. good summary of all parameters here= Understanding Loudspeaker Data | Eminence Speaker

likewise yes you dont know exactly how those speakers would compare, and that is why we all love modeling software cause it will show you, the response in a certain volume, how much cone travel you have with a applied amount of power, how much spl or sound pressure level you have loudness in laymans terms. how much power before distortion, and likewise can compare SPL of 2 systems with say 100 watts applied to this speaker/ and another speaker for comparison. or how much spl a 1, 2 , 4 or 8 speaker system would produce, and yes how much more power handling from adding drivers. and likewise the actual intent is for auto calculating alignments if you wanted to do a actual filter aligned speakers following Thiele /Small's research.

 

[funkinbottom]

The more I read from you, guys I'm more convinced on going for a 12.

I built two 1-12 cabs using the Deltalite ll 2512's and couldn't be happier.

 

[JC Vallejo]

I thought at the beginning that the volume needed in a cab was only depending on speaker size and power able to be handled, but I was wrong. So getting my V2.0 goals in priority...

... This time I want to focus on something ahead:
- Design something light and compact.
- Think maybe on two cabs so I could use one for practice and small gigs and two cabs when I need a little extra (and get my SVT Pro 7 to work).
- Learn about cab tuning and the whole nine yards...

So "light" is more related with the magnet type and involves obviously VAS, that is indeed how compact a cab is. My first project with a DELTA -15LF-4 was 254 liters, but I could pick another 15" like the KAPPALITE 3015 or KAPPALITE 3015LF that would be an upgrade regarding lightweight and compact (it's "only" 153 and 150 liters respectively instead of 254) and i think it has a better but different performance.

and xmax on a speaker data sheet shows you how many millimeters a voice coil can travel and when the speaker has reached 10% distortion. so its kinda considered the end of the road for accepted amount of distortion/ and system sound pressure you care to hear and not damage the speaker as well. Xlim shows you how much more you got till actual driver damage...

Comparing:
KAPPALITE 3015
450w (same)
100.8dB (is this single spec enough to state that this will be louder?)
40Hz - 4Khz (both starts at 40Hz, but this has an extended range that seems to fit better the 3.5Khz crossover that I'm intended to use)
XMAX = 5.9mm (shorter than the other but a bit longer than my DELTA -15LF-4)

KAPPALITE 3015LF
450w (same)
98.4dB (it's more than 3dB below, so I would need twice the power to achieve the same loud level?)
40Hz - 1.5Khz (If my crossover is 3.5Khz, would sound awful because the lack of "punch" between 1.5 and 3.5Khz?)
XMAX = 9.6mm (Nice for handling low frequencies with less distortion)

If I got you right, this two would have a better low end than my current DELTA -15LF-4, but KAPPALITE 3015 may be a bit louder but more suitable to distort at low frequencies at certain amount of power.

Sorry if I'm asking too much but it would be very helpful if you help me with this:
1. The lack of XMAX from the KAPPALITE 3015 compared with the 3015LF would be easy noticeably (as distortion in low freq) in an average gig?
2. Given these 2 options and knowing that there is no straight answer to this, would you go safe with the KAPPALITE 3015LF for a better low end, sacrificing some loud? or the other way? I have no clue which trade would be a greater loss considering the use of this cabs (use a single one for practice and small close room gigs or two cabs for medium or open area gigs when there's no PA or PA lacks of bass).
3. Given my goals, would you consider another driver hoping to get below 160 liters per cab?

Thanks!

 

[wcriley]

KAPPALITE 3015LF
...
40Hz - 1.5Khz (If my crossover is 3.5Khz, would sound awful because the lack of "punch" between 1.5 and 3.5Khz?)

Not only would you have a hole between the top of the driver and the crossover frequency, you'd have that obnoxious spike at 1.2K. Most people low pass a 301xLF in the neighborhood of 800Hz to avoid that spike.

As for the 450 Watt power handling: Depending on the cabinet design, the excursion limited power handling could be as low as 100 Watts at low frequencies. This where good modeling software becomes very helpful/

 

[JC Vallejo]

Not only would you have a hole between the top of the driver and the crossover frequency, you'd have that obnoxious spike at 1.2K. Most people low pass a 301xLF in the neighborhood of 800Hz to avoid that spike.

As for the 450 Watt power handling: Depending on the cabinet design, the excursion limited power handling could be as low as 100 Watts at low frequencies. This where good modeling software becomes very helpful/

In your opinion would be better to think on a different crossover or a different driver?

Any freeware or not expensive modeling software that you may suggest?

 

[wcriley]

LinearTeam

 

[Passinwind]

LinearTeam

Use this link instead: http://www.linearteam.org/download/winisd-07x.exe

Can't fathom why those guys have left those obsolete links on their site for so many years. Probably because they just use Facebook these days, like so many other people.

 

[BogeyBass]

I thought at the beginning that the volume needed in a cab was only depending on speaker size and power able to be handled, but I was wrong. So getting my V2.0 goals in priority...


So "light" is more related with the magnet type and involves obviously VAS, that is indeed how compact a cab is. My first project with a DELTA -15LF-4 was 254 liters, but I could pick another 15" like the KAPPALITE 3015 or KAPPALITE 3015LF that would be an upgrade regarding lightweight and compact (it's "only" 153 and 150 liters respectively instead of 254) and i think it has a better but different performance.



Comparing:
KAPPALITE 3015
450w (same)
100.8dB (is this single spec enough to state that this will be louder?)
40Hz - 4Khz (both starts at 40Hz, but this has an extended range that seems to fit better the 3.5Khz crossover that I'm intended to use)
XMAX = 5.9mm (shorter than the other but a bit longer than my DELTA -15LF-4)

KAPPALITE 3015LF
450w (same)
98.4dB (it's more than 3dB below, so I would need twice the power to achieve the same loud level?)
40Hz - 1.5Khz (If my crossover is 3.5Khz, would sound awful because the lack of "punch" between 1.5 and 3.5Khz?)
XMAX = 9.6mm (Nice for handling low frequencies with less distortion)

If I got you right, this two would have a better low end than my current DELTA -15LF-4, but KAPPALITE 3015 may be a bit louder but more suitable to distort at low frequencies at certain amount of power.

Sorry if I'm asking too much but it would be very helpful if you help me with this:
1. The lack of XMAX from the KAPPALITE 3015 compared with the 3015LF would be easy noticeably (as distortion in low freq) in an average gig?
2. Given these 2 options and knowing that there is no straight answer to this, would you go safe with the KAPPALITE 3015LF for a better low end, sacrificing some loud? or the other way? I have no clue which trade would be a greater loss considering the use of this cabs (use a single one for practice and small close room gigs or two cabs for medium or open area gigs when there's no PA or PA lacks of bass).
3. Given my goals, would you consider another driver hoping to get below 160 liters per cab?

Thanks!

160 liters or less would be very easily found with many pro audio 15" speakers. 160 liters or 5.6 cubic feet is very much on the large side for musical instrument use, usually a good trade off for good bass extension and also good power handling. 2.7 to 3.4 cubic feet or 77 to 96 liters would be considered a average or medium box for good power handling. and likewise 3.8 to 4.6 cubic feet or 107 to 130 liters would be considered a large or sub type box.

also keep in mind that yes xmax is a pretty good indicator of how much a power/ low end frequency a driver will obtain and yes your getting the basic idea on suitable drivers and how Xmax can also decrease overall system sensitivity. also keep in mind that other mechanical properties of the driver like its mechanical quality or Qms and its overall suspension stiffness Cms can have a effect on its performance. so say you were comparing a 4.4mm driver to a 5.5mm driver the assumption would be the 5.5mm handles more power. but the Cms of the 4.4mm could be higher and they both would roughly handle same amount of power. again just a generalization and this is why modeling again makes final driver purchase/ or cabinet design more realistic

also driver choice between the 2 kappilites depends on what type of system your looking at building, and what kind of power your working with. 3015 would be higher sensitivity / and has enough bandwidth to be "full range" which is one speaker handling all frequencies
3015LF with lower sensitivity/ high excursion has limited bandwith and would be used in a 2/3 way system which divides the bandwidth with a low frequency driver and a mid range/high frequency driver. and requires a passive or active crossover.
and yes not quite 3db of sensitivity difference, but yes overall the high excursion driver will require almost twice the amount of power to reach same spl of the higher sensitivity driver.

other high quality, cast frame drivers often considered for lower cost 15" fullrange applications in the Eminence line would be the

Legend CB158 Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker
Delta Pro 15A Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker

midrange quality, stamped steel drivers considered for lower cost 15" fullrange applications

Delta 15A /B (16 and 8ohm) Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker
Beta 15 Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker

and likewise a High excursion, cast frame ceramic driver for LF duty in a 2 way system

Kappa Pro 15LF2 Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker

 

[JC Vallejo]

other high quality, cast frame drivers often considered for lower cost 15" fullrange applications in the Eminence line would be the

Legend CB158

First, thanks for your feedback.

Let's say that I'm taking Legend CB158 and KAPPALITE 3015 as my main options and want to see what's going on WinISD. It has some preloaded drivers, but I can't find Legend CB158 or KAPPALITE 3015 (I find some similars but I want to get sure) so I have to add it.

I can find most of the parameters but not all:

I can't find: fLE (Hz), KLe, Hc, Hg and I'm assuming that data in blue is Ok.

The parameters that I can't find, are they needed? If yes where could I find them or is there another term for those?

Thanks!

 

[BogeyBass]

right on cool your in soft ware land.

fLe, KLe are related to Le or inductance values at certain frequencies, and no not needed to save the driver and work with it. having just a value for Le is good enough.

Pe is peak power handling and just enter the manufactures rating in watts.

technically it should be its maximum thermal rating. not a "peak" rating but a " continuous" rating. blah blah. now that you have software youll see the difference between thermal watt ratings and actual power handling before distortion or linear range of the speaker or Xmax.
a " 300" or "450" watt speaker is how many watts of energy it can handle thermally over a time period, speakers get very hot. so if a speaker is continuously operated for say 6 or 8 hrs on a friday night lol. it can displace 450 watts of power thermally. now before it farts out or sounds like distorted krap might only be 120 or 150 watts. likewise with some high excursion drivers. The thermal rating and the linear range of the speaker are almost equal. Or some.. technically however inflated you feel the xmax rating is. Can go over the thermal limit and still be considered in the linear range.

Hc and Hg have to do with voicecoil measurements and if you already have Xmax then they are not needed.

likewise a older formula used to determine Xmax was a equation based on height of coil and height of gap. so if you had a driver and didnt know xmax, if you had Hc and Hg i believe winisd would be capable of auto calculating xmax.

Hc= height of coil
Hg= height of air gap

also sometimes when you save a driver you will get error messages and wont be able to save it, cause winisd doesnt allow drivers to be saved with incorrect ts parameters . Some values are equations of other values.
So as you can see if you have some parameters, other parameters can be auto calculated. Auto calculated values will pop up n blue.

Sometimes values you enter in green are correct, but not close enough for winisd to consider them correct. Depending on what group, small signal or large signal you get error messages in...and yes sometimes both. Erase a entered green value and let winisd auto calculate it. In the error message it will tell you which parameters are related to the errors being found. So those parameters are good clues to where the error is occurring.
also some values cant be auto calculated, so you have to enter those, and erase other values and let them be calculated instead, over time youll find out which parameters can and cant be calculated cause if you erase one number it doesnt get calculated, and likewise might cause other auto calculated values to disappear.
then to be sure, make sure the auto calculated value is still close to the manufactures value. usually it just needed a more precise value to a certain decimal point, the value you entered was basically correct but winisd sees it as a error. once the errors are corrected it will allow you to save it

also youll probably notice it wont auto calculate until you click onto another input tab. or you can just hit the tab key, to make it auto calculate.