Double Bass Newbie Question on First Bass Setup - An Old Bass

[MountainMikeCS]

Hi All,

I've been playing electric since 1982 and finally bought myself my first upright - a well-used Meisel - made in Germany, age unknown. This is actually my second upright - my wife rented one for my 50th birthday 4 years ago, but I returned it after a year of complaints that it was too loud to play in the house with our then 3-year-old sleeping so much. My daughter is now older, sleeps better, so I took the leap.

This bass is a laminated bass which has seen better days - the previous older hadn't played it in a while and it had significant dirt buildup which I cleaned off with some lightly-soapy water and 0000 steel wool - which worked nice. There are many laminate chips around the edges but there is no major peeling or surface damage. The neck has been repaired at the heel - it appears well done. The bass was suffering some top cave-in on the bass (left?) side - further inspection I found the bass bar was separating, and I found a few videos on fixing it without removing the top. So I fixed it - with a snake camera, Tightbond wood glue, a brush on a bent hanger, patience and clamps. The bass bar is now completely attached (for the past week since I fixed it).

The top is still a little sunk on the left after the bass bar fix but it is much better - I'll deal with that later. For now, I followed some more online luthier instructions and I cut a wood dowel to the correct side and placed that under the left-side of the bridge and slid it in place, to stabilize the left side, I might go with a "patch" solution later to more permanently fix the sag. I know this can affect the sound but I'm still learning and not planning to play this thing in any professional setting, so its fine for me.

Overall this bass "seems" pretty sound. The soundbar is in the right place - I removed it before the bass bar repair and replaced it in its exact spot with the correct installation slot mark facing where it was before I removed it.

I paid $600 for this bass - it was the only functioning bass I found in several months of searching my area. It cost only $32 to fix the bass bar and less than 4 hours of time total to get this thing how I like it. Now the bass seems pretty sound, except for one issue.

The other main issue I have is tuning. Since getting the bass and even before fixing the bass bar, tuning this thing is problematic as I keep hearing a wood-settling-like "pong" sound when I near correct EADG tuning, or sometimes when playing, and the whole things goes out of tune, usually dropping a half step lower. It sometimes takes a few minutes to get this thing tunes.

I think this is the bridge. When I got the bass the bridge was very far forward of the F-hole bridge alignment slots - Almost an inch. Its a Meisel bridge - the original, I think. I removed the bridge to do my bass bar repair and afterwards when I re-installed the bridge I moved the bridge back in line with the F-hole slots and did a decent intonation adjustment by tightening and tuning the E, then adjusting the bridge up and down a little and leaning back a little to get the mid-string harmonic spot fretted-octave tuned to the open string, then also comparing the 7th step harmonic and 5th step harmonics to their fretted notes. I repeated with this process with the high G. Then I tuned up the D and A and found them well intoned. This worked out well. The bass intonation worked well.

I also made sure to rub some pencil lead into the string spots on the bridge to allow the strings to slide better, as I read online.

About four days after fixing the bass bar I replaced the strings - they were very old and getting rusty and the E was actually unraveling near the nut. Now I'm having difficulty getting the intonation adjusted back. I can tune it but I still get the "pong" when tuning gets close, so tuning takes time getting all the strings close, then homing in on the right tuning of each. Just a few minutes ago I was practicing and I heard the "pong" again and all strings tuned down about 1/2 step again.The bridge looked like it was leaning forward - I pushed it back, but it doesn't want to stay back and keeps tilting forward.

I'm thinking that this bridge was positioned in its "happy place" closer to the neck when I bought it for this reason - the partial caving in of the top, and because the bridge was tending to lean forward.

My question:

Other than the bridge being pulled forward, what else could throw this thing out of tune like that? Could the whole bass be "settling" like an old house during use, due to the enormous pressure of the strings on the top and the fact that it is so old? Any suggestions?

Thanks all - I've included some pics of my big baby.

 

[jdbassie]

Are the bridge feet sitting flush on the table/top? Looks like there's a slight gap in one of the pics.

 

[longfinger]

Other reasons why strings could be going flat on a healthy instrument:
1 - strings stretching (new strings)
2 - humidity less than before, bass drying up and shrinking


For #2, that usually happens in the fall. In spring, all my instruments go sharp as the humidity in the air increases and the wood swells. In the fall, all the instruments go flat.

For your bass, the reason could be something else.

 

[stefaniw80401]

One cannot "intonate" the string-length a DB as if it were an EB. In other words, wherever the harmonics lie, that's where the "fret", or fingering location is. Same is true for unlined fretless electric bass.

 

[Carl Hillman]

Hi All,

I've been playing electric since 1982 and finally bought myself my first upright - a well-used Meisel - made in Germany, age unknown. This is actually my second upright - my wife rented one for my 50th birthday 4 years ago, but I returned it after a year of complaints that it was too loud to play in the house with our then 3-year-old sleeping so much. My daughter is now older, sleeps better, so I took the leap.

This bass is a laminated bass which has seen better days - the previous older hadn't played it in a while and it had significant dirt buildup which I cleaned off with some lightly-soapy water and 0000 steel wool - which worked nice. There are many laminate chips around the edges but there is no major peeling or surface damage. The neck has been repaired at the heel - it appears well done. The bass was suffering some top cave-in on the bass (left?) side - further inspection I found the bass bar was separating, and I found a few videos on fixing it without removing the top. So I fixed it - with a snake camera, Tightbond wood glue, a brush on a bent hanger, patience and clamps. The bass bar is now completely attached (for the past week since I fixed it).

The top is still a little sunk on the left after the bass bar fix but it is much better - I'll deal with that later. For now, I followed some more online luthier instructions and I cut a wood dowel to the correct side and placed that under the left-side of the bridge and slid it in place, to stabilize the left side, I might go with a "patch" solution later to more permanently fix the sag. I know this can affect the sound but I'm still learning and not planning to play this thing in any professional setting, so its fine for me.

Overall this bass "seems" pretty sound. The soundbar is in the right place - I removed it before the bass bar repair and replaced it in its exact spot with the correct installation slot mark facing where it was before I removed it.

I paid $600 for this bass - it was the only functioning bass I found in several months of searching my area. It cost only $32 to fix the bass bar and less than 4 hours of time total to get this thing how I like it. Now the bass seems pretty sound, except for one issue.

The other main issue I have is tuning. Since getting the bass and even before fixing the bass bar, tuning this thing is problematic as I keep hearing a wood-settling-like "pong" sound when I near correct EADG tuning, or sometimes when playing, and the whole things goes out of tune, usually dropping a half step lower. It sometimes takes a few minutes to get this thing tunes.

I think this is the bridge. When I got the bass the bridge was very far forward of the F-hole bridge alignment slots - Almost an inch. Its a Meisel bridge - the original, I think. I removed the bridge to do my bass bar repair and afterwards when I re-installed the bridge I moved the bridge back in line with the F-hole slots and did a decent intonation adjustment by tightening and tuning the E, then adjusting the bridge up and down a little and leaning back a little to get the mid-string harmonic spot fretted-octave tuned to the open string, then also comparing the 7th step harmonic and 5th step harmonics to their fretted notes. I repeated with this process with the high G. Then I tuned up the D and A and found them well intoned. This worked out well. The bass intonation worked well.

I also made sure to rub some pencil lead into the string spots on the bridge to allow the strings to slide better, as I read online.

About four days after fixing the bass bar I replaced the strings - they were very old and getting rusty and the E was actually unraveling near the nut. Now I'm having difficulty getting the intonation adjusted back. I can tune it but I still get the "pong" when tuning gets close, so tuning takes time getting all the strings close, then homing in on the right tuning of each. Just a few minutes ago I was practicing and I heard the "pong" again and all strings tuned down about 1/2 step again.The bridge looked like it was leaning forward - I pushed it back, but it doesn't want to stay back and keeps tilting forward.

I'm thinking that this bridge was positioned in its "happy place" closer to the neck when I bought it for this reason - the partial caving in of the top, and because the bridge was tending to lean forward.

My question:

Other than the bridge being pulled forward, what else could throw this thing out of tune like that? Could the whole bass be "settling" like an old house during use, due to the enormous pressure of the strings on the top and the fact that it is so old? Any suggestions?

Thanks all - I've included some pics of my big baby.

Hard to tell from that first picture, but it looks like the endpin plug might be shifting in the block.

The whole endpin assembly doesn't look quite straight. Are there any cracks on the bottom of the bass, near the endblock?

 

[MountainMikeCS]

I examined the endpin - it twists out by hand and goes back in easily, but I didn't notice this before but it gets nice and tight when I turn it clockwise. It isn't loose in the hole and I didn't notice any broken wood or cracks from the outside or from the inside when I inspected the inside of the bass with my boroscope (what I called a snake camera) during the bass bar repair. In fact, the inside is very clean for a bass that had so much dirt caked on the outside when I originally got it.
I attached some photos of the endpin, the endpin whole, and the endpin twisted tight into position.
This could have contributed to the problem before, as the endpin was never fully seated flush to the bass before like I notice it will sit flush now.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The tailgut might slip for some reason.
Either the knot slips or the tailgut slips through a clamp or the tailpiece might be damaged on the underside where the tailgut is fixed.
If all strings detune by a similar amount, it‘s typically the tailpiece that doesn‘t stay in place for whatever reason.

It might’ve that the lower block got damaged and two pieces of it separate under tension of the endpin assembly coming from the tailgut tension.
Check if the endpin (when totally extended) raises towards the top when tuning up. That would show a damaged lower block or a bad framing for the endpin assembly.

 

[MountainMikeCS]

One cannot "intonate" the string-length a DB as if it were an EB. In other words, wherever the harmonics lie, that's where the "fret", or fingering location is. Same is true for unlined fretless electric bass.

Thanks for your reply. I have found that adjusting the position of the bridge toward or away from the neck changes the tuning of the fretted note at the octave harmonic. This is how I am setting up the bridge - sliding it back, straighten vertically, tighten and tune the string and then check the tuning at the octave harmonic. Repeat as needed. When I use this procedure on the E and then the G strings the A and D strings also tune correctly at the octave harmonic.

 

[Steven Ayres]

I have found that adjusting the position of the bridge toward or away from the neck changes the tuning of the fretted note at the octave harmonic.

I get where you're coming from, but setting the bridge on upright is simpler than that. On a 3/4 bass set the top of the bridge at between 41.5" and 42" from the nut. This is your scale. Make sure the bridge feet are down solid, then adjust the soundpost position to suit the bridge. The intonation is in your fingers as you play.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Thanks for your reply. I have found that adjusting the position of the bridge toward or away from the neck changes the tuning of the fretted note at the octave harmonic. This is how I am setting up the bridge - sliding it back, straighten vertically, tighten and tune the string and then check the tuning at the octave harmonic. Repeat as needed. When I use this procedure on the E and then the G strings the A and D strings also tune correctly at the octave harmonic.

But there is no fret. If you push the string down right at the harmonic node, you will be stretching the string slightly, and intonation will rise slightly accordingly. But that is just the nature of an unfretted instrument

 

[David Potts]

I am not understanding why you are moving the bridge to adjust the tuning. This is why I asked about using the tuning machines, as you would with a guitar or bass guitar, to tension each string in turn and give you G D A E? When the pitch of all strings drops dramatically does their height above the fingerboard increase too ( loose neck or neck block)? Is the bridge put back the right way round? It should not be leaning forward so much. Normally a bridge is fitted so that its back (nearest the tail piece) is vertical and the front leans back slightly when the bridge feet fit correctly and you look side on. When you get the "pong" and pitch drops has the bridge top moved (jumped) towards the fingerboard? Has the front of the bass collapsed badly?

There are not many reasons why the pitch drops suddenly (but with a "pong"??) -
* The tuning machines all slip together (pigs can fly?)
* The finger board is coming unstuck from the neck and the neck is bending forward - you can see the gap in the glue line and the strings become higher above the fingerboard
* The neck block is coming unstuck or the neck is coming loose - tap the ribs near the base of the neck then further away and listen for a difference
* The bridge has bent or leaned too far towards the fingerboard and the angles of the strings on each side of the bridge have become too different
* The bridge is straight but the feet have not been fitted correctly
* The bridge has been put back the wrong way round. This would normally make the string heights weird and you could also tell by the diameter of the grooves in the bridge top.
* The tail wire is slipping apart and lengthening
* The bottom block is loose - again tapping the ribs over the block and nearby
* See if seams are coming unstuck around the bottom ribs, front and back

 

[BarfanyShart]

I think if you are moving the bridge around a bunch the "pong" is the bridge moving to settle back in place. You just set the bridge so that the feet are making full contact with the top and leave it - there is no "intonating" it. The sagging top may either be moving slightly when you when bring the string to tension, or the sag has caused the top to be misshapen so that the bridge isn't able to sit in place properly. You probably ought to get a luthier to look at it and propose a solution sooner than later - doesn't seem like the kind of problem that ages like fine wine.

 

[salcott]

Take it to someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[MountainMikeCS]

I am not understanding why you are moving the bridge to adjust the tuning. This is why I asked about using the tuning machines, as you would with a guitar or bass guitar, to tension each string in turn and give you G D A E? When the pitch of all strings drops dramatically does their height above the fingerboard increase too ( loose neck or neck block)? Is the bridge put back the right way round? It should not be leaning forward so much. Normally a bridge is fitted so that its back (nearest the tail piece) is vertical and the front leans back slightly when the bridge feet fit correctly and you look side on. When you get the "pong" and pitch drops has the bridge top moved (jumped) towards the fingerboard? Has the front of the bass collapsed badly?

There are not many reasons why the pitch drops suddenly (but with a "pong"??) -
* The tuning machines all slip together (pigs can fly?)
* The finger board is coming unstuck from the neck and the neck is bending forward - you can see the gap in the glue line and the strings become higher above the fingerboard
* The neck block is coming unstuck or the neck is coming loose - tap the ribs near the base of the neck then further away and listen for a difference
* The bridge has bent or leaned too far towards the fingerboard and the angles of the strings on each side of the bridge have become too different
* The bridge is straight but the feet have not been fitted correctly
* The bridge has been put back the wrong way round. This would normally make the string heights weird and you could also tell by the diameter of the grooves in the bridge top.
* The tail wire is slipping apart and lengthening
* The bottom block is loose - again tapping the ribs over the block and nearby
* See if seams are coming unstuck around the bottom ribs, front and back

Thank you David. You have given me quite an education on what to look for. After reseating my pin, tightly, and carefully aligning the tail wire in its grooves and the bridge in its proper position, I am able to tune the bass without any of the popping or tuning problems I experienced before now.

 

[MountainMikeCS]

All - thanks for your educational responses. I'm intentionally being as hands-on with this instrument to take my time and really learn it and appreciate its nuances. I'm learning here that there is a lot more to learn and so much I didn't know.

Reseating the pin, good and flush, seems to have solved the problem so far. I've been able to tune the bass without problem.

Now onto the process of learning as much as I can about how this bass works and how to work a sweet, sweet tone out of it.

 

[MountainMikeCS]

Take it to someone who knows what they're doing.

Thank you for your response, but why bring it to someone? I like tinkering and learning and this is a $600 bass - I don't play professionally. I don't plan to in the near future. I could easily spend $600 on fixing this thing up. I almost took the top off myself to fix the bass bar, but learned that was necessary.

 

[salcott]

You appeared to be in over your head. I'm glad the endpin reset took care of the problem.

 

[BarfanyShart]

I fully support your tinkering and learning. One very valuable thing you could do ifor that bass is get some hide glue and fix up those corners so the don't splinter and wear down more as you use it. If you figure out what to do with to clean up the finish, you can protect the parts that make contact with surfaces by painting on a thin layer of the glue. Making friends with a luthier is never a bad idea, though! Good luck!

 

[MountainMikeCS]

I think I found the problem - its the bridge. Since I fixed fhe bass bar most of the top sag is gone. Now the bridge sits higher on the lower strings side (E and A) and is less stable and keeps leaning forward as I tune. I struggled to hold it back as I tuned it, I got both feet firmly planted and I got it tuned, played for a minute and heard a slight PONG and all strings dropped out of tune 1/2 step. I checked the feet again with a piece of paper and the bridge was leaning forward again. I had to push it back again.

Anyone know of any tricks to fix a bridge that wants to fall forward?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Check the tailpiece cable fixing.
The reason why the bridge leans towards the fingerboard after the „pong“ is that the whole tailpiece moves. It does because something cannot hold the tension and slips.
If you have a clamp or a knot at the tailpiece cable, it might slip there.

It could also be the lower block splitting, but I doubt that. You can check by the change of the endpin angle if that happens.

I once had a bass with a cello tailpiece. It did hold for over ten years, but then the wood on the underside splitted where the cable was fixed. A tailpiece where the cable gets from bottom to top and back to the bottom wouldn’t have splitted, but the ones that hide the cable at the underside can.

It could also be that your bass bar repair doesn‘t hold and that it separates stepwise and sinks again which could also explain the detuning, but not the leaning of the bridge. So I doubt that.