Phase Cancelation Between Gain Stages - Seeking Advice

[Kurtis Marleau]

So I'm in the studio right now, I'll attach a photo of my pedalboard for context.

I'm trying to record a song with my fuzz effect and I'm having issues with it just not sounding right. It seems like there's phase cancelation happening somewhere in my rig. I've found that running from my amps DI sounds nothing like running it through a cabinet and it's caused us a lot of headaches.
Are there any studio tools that we can use to work around this before i go in for a 5th tracking session? How do you deal with phase canceling between your gain stages? Any advice is appreciated, I've never had this issue before, but I've also significantly upgraded my rig since my last studio session.

Full signal chain for live performance () = noise gate loop

Ibanez BTB400QM > Korg pitchblack tuner > Boss NS2 noise gate (Two Notes Le Bass > Soundblox Pro Multiwave Distortion > Justin Chancellor Fuzz Wah > Boss GEB7 EQ) > Digitech Bass Whammy > "Coulson Electronics" Polychorus Clone > Boss BF2 Flanger > Boss DD7 Delay > Gallien Krueger MB500 Bass Amp > Audient iD44 interface > Reaper

Signal chain I'm using for this song

Ibanez BTB400QM > Korg tuner > Boss NS2 (Two Notes Le Bass > Justin Chancellor Fuzz Wah > Boss GEB7) > Digitech Bass Whammy > GK MB500 > Audient iD44 > Reaper

During our last session I ran a DI from the Two Notes Le Bass as well as the MB500 and I found that improved the overall sound, but the fuzz is still not breaking up the way that it does through my cabinet.

Any tips are greatly appreciated!

 

[TheArchitect]

1) Phase is a time thing, not a gain thing so I don't understand that question.
2) I would fully expect a DI to sound quite different than the amp
3) Generally when recording DI and an amp, the DI is clean. No effects. It is then blended as desired with the amp signal

The studio is not the place to get clever if you are inexperienced. Start with a simple chain and add as you sort things out


It sounds like your DI signal might be hitting the DAW a touch earlier than the amp. Not uncommon as there is potentially a small amount of latency in the amp chain. Its also possible the amp signal is inverted compared to the DI. If there is any latency, you just nudge the track that is late back so the transients line up. If the signal from one source is inverted, it will be obvious as the wave forms will track opposite of each other. Just enable the phase invert button on the track where the transients poke downward.

 

[whoismarykelly]

The fact that the engineer hasn't sorted this very routine issue in under a minute is surprising. Correcting phase is something any engineer does all the time. If there is a pedal that is changing the signal polarity against a clean DI then you just need to identify that pedal and flip the phase of the signal chain any time its on.

 

[TheArchitect]

The fact that the engineer hasn't sorted this very routine issue in under a minute is surprising. Correcting phase is something any engineer does all the time. If there is a pedal that is changing the signal polarity against a clean DI then you just need to identify that pedal and flip the phase of the signal chain any time its on.

He did not specify being in a pro room. He may be trying to sort this out on his own which seems likely as I agree with you, any competent pro engineer would have this sorted in no time.

 

[gregmon79]

have you tried your Lebass last? Or later in the chain?

I know I tend to use a lot of EQ and preamp before my signal hits anything on top of using OD more times than not. This can lead to issues at times. Usually a squash I need to dial out.

 

[Kurtis Marleau]

The fact that the engineer hasn't sorted this very routine issue in under a minute is surprising. Correcting phase is something any engineer does all the time. If there is a pedal that is changing the signal polarity against a clean DI then you just need to identify that pedal and flip the phase of the signal chain any time its on.

I should have clarified, this is a home studio environment. We do have some really good equipment to work with, however. Rack units, synths, electric drums, acoustic drums, etc.

My engineer has mixed two records on his own and he regularly records his own music. This is the largest guitar rig he's ever worked with. He leans more into plug-ins and synthesizers with his other projects. I use a lot of on-board gear, which is new for him.

have you tried your Lebass last? Or later in the chain?

I know I tend to use a lot of EQ and preamp before my signal hits anything on top of using OD more times than not. This can lead to issues at times. Usually a squash I need to dial out.

I could try running the Le Bass last, I use it more as a drive pedal than I do as a standalone amp. Gives me some warmth before it hits the GK amp, which is very crispy on its own (Great for funk tones. I love GK amps!). I've experimented a lot with pedalboard layout and the live rig I posted is what sounds best to me. The clean boost from the Le Bass into the fuzz really gives me that breakup that I like in the live setting, but maybe that's not the solution for the studio.

All useful advice, thanks for chiming in folks!

 

[whoismarykelly]

I should have clarified, this is a home studio environment. We do have some really good equipment to work with, however. Rack units, synths, electric drums, acoustic drums, etc.

OK in this case the next time you go you should select the tones you will use and then determine if they are in phase with each other. Take notes so you know what you will be using and whether you need to flip phase when using the different tones.

Its also worth considering dramatically simplifying the rig in this situation because you are introducing a complexity that the person recording you may not be able to manage at this time.

 

[TheArchitect]

OK in this case the next time you go you should select the tones you will use and then determine if they are in phase with each other. Take notes so you know what you will be using and whether you need to flip phase when using the different tones.

Its also worth considering dramatically simplifying the rig in this situation because you are introducing a complexity that the person recording you may not be able to manage at this time.

Simplifying the rig is step one. From what you are describing, a simple clean DI will get you better results than trying to patch up what you are currently getting. Pick one chain and work with that. Having multiple sources is only useful if you know how to put them together.

The steps I suggested in my first post will address help address any remaining issues outlined above but you should not have any issues if you stick with a single sound source.

 

[FullumMusic]

Concurring with what @TheArchitect said, phase cancellation isn't something that happens in gain or multiple gain stages. Phase cancellation happens when two parallel signals are slightly or completely out of phase with one another and partially or completely cancel each other out.

Assuming you aren't splitting your signal, and it's one single path from your bass -> pedals -> DAW Channel, if there is phase cancellation, it's happening on a device with Dry/Wet being blended. Phase is a time-based issue. Time based processing with dry/wet makes me guess it's the Flanger, Chorus, or Delay. (In reality, Flanger and Chorus effects are literally phase cancelation by design.) Also, if you're using Pitch shifting at any other setting other than 100% wet, it could also be the issue.

But these are all educated guesses.

The proper way to troubleshoot is to take all the variables out of the equation, go directly into the audio interface and listen. Then one at a time, add pedals back into your signal chain until the issue happens. Then use only that one pedal in isolation to see if it still happens alone.

That is, if what you're hearing is actually phase cancellation.

 

[monsterthompson]

1) Phase is a time thing, not a gain thing so I don't understand that question.

Likely polarity not phase, though those words sometimes get used interchangeably. Some signal mixers/blenders include a “phase” switch to account for this so it’s not surprising.

I can’t think of any experiences I’ve had with pedals flipping polarity of a signal creating cancelation when blending the sounds, but it gets talked about. I have heard phasing issues when blending a clean signal with a DSP effect with a small amount of latency on the effect signal.

 

[MVE]

If it sounds the way you want it to sound coming out of the cabinet, then just use a mic.

 

[Carl Hillman]

So I'm in the studio right now, I'll attach a photo of my pedalboard for context.

I'm trying to record a song with my fuzz effect and I'm having issues with it just not sounding right. It seems like there's phase cancelation happening somewhere in my rig. I've found that running from my amps DI sounds nothing like running it through a cabinet and it's caused us a lot of headaches.
Are there any studio tools that we can use to work around this before i go in for a 5th tracking session? How do you deal with phase canceling between your gain stages? Any advice is appreciated, I've never had this issue before, but I've also significantly upgraded my rig since my last studio session.

Full signal chain for live performance () = noise gate loop

Ibanez BTB400QM > Korg pitchblack tuner > Boss NS2 noise gate (Two Notes Le Bass > Soundblox Pro Multiwave Distortion > Justin Chancellor Fuzz Wah > Boss GEB7 EQ) > Digitech Bass Whammy > "Coulson Electronics" Polychorus Clone > Boss BF2 Flanger > Boss DD7 Delay > Gallien Krueger MB500 Bass Amp > Audient iD44 interface > Reaper

Signal chain I'm using for this song

Ibanez BTB400QM > Korg tuner > Boss NS2 (Two Notes Le Bass > Justin Chancellor Fuzz Wah > Boss GEB7) > Digitech Bass Whammy > GK MB500 > Audient iD44 > Reaper

During our last session I ran a DI from the Two Notes Le Bass as well as the MB500 and I found that improved the overall sound, but the fuzz is still not breaking up the way that it does through my cabinet.

Any tips are greatly appreciated!

Record a clean, direct track. Then reamp that track with just the effects you need for the song.

 

[Wasnex]

In general polarity and phase are only a problem when you are using parallel processing to combine two or more versions of the signal.

Some analog pedals flip the polarity. You don't have to worry about each pedal. One pedal might flip the signal out of phase and another pedal might flip the signal back in phase. If the signal from the final output is out of phase, simply reverse the polarity again, and you are good to go.

Digital pedals pose a different problem. It takes a certain amount of time for digital processing to occur. In other words the output is time delayed with respect to the input. This delay causes phase errors between the wet and dry signals that vary by frequency. AFAIK to correct, you need to delay the dry signal to line up with the wet signal. FYI: One name for this type delay is "latency."

 

[GrowlerBox]

I don't know much about the Chancellor Fuzz-Wah, but does it like having a buffer in front of it?

 

[MVE]

In general polarity and phase are only a problem when you are using parallel processing to combine two or more versions of the signal.

Some analog pedals flip the polarity. You don't have to worry about each pedal. One pedal might flip the signal out of phase and another pedal might flip the signal back in phase. If the signal from the final output is out of phase, simply reverse the polarity again, and you are good to go.

Digital pedals pose a different problem. It takes a certain amount of time for digital processing to occur. In other words the output is time delayed with respect to the input. This delay causes phase errors between the wet and dry signals that vary by frequency. AFAIK to correct, you need to delay the dry signal to line up with the wet signal. FYI: One name for this type delay is "latency."

You just open both waveforms next to each other, zoom in close enough to see the peaks, and then just grab and slide one over.
Thats why everyone is so confused by the question.

 

[Rumfoord]

I'm wondering if the filtering settings of the wah and/or eq are simply sounding different overall to you without the specific eq curve that the speakers in the signal chain would usually contribute.

I agree with everything everyone's said so far about what you should try.

I'll just add that in order to sound right to your ear, the settings of the wah pedal and eq pedal might need to be readjusted pretty dramatically for the new (dramatically different) context of missing bass cabinet speakers.

(I know—don't take away pedals—what you need is to buy an IR pedal! jk, jk)

 

[bellbottoms]

tldr: Too much gear. Just plug your bass into the DI and apply effects in post.

Each additional device or pedal in the signal chain can potentially introduce noise, signal degradation, or phase issues. Even high-quality gear isn't immune—every connection point, cable, and circuit has the potential to add a tiny bit of interference or alter the tone in unintended ways.

By going straight into a DI, you minimize these risks and capture the purest version of your bass's signal. From there, you can apply EQ, compression, and effects digitally in post, where you have full control without worrying about the artifacts introduced during recording. It’s a "less is more" approach.

 

[P_Basser]

1) Phase is a time thing, not a gain thing so I don't understand that question.
2) I would fully expect a DI to sound quite different than the amp
3) Generally when recording DI and an amp, the DI is clean. No effects. It is then blended as desired with the amp signal

The studio is not the place to get clever if you are inexperienced. Start with a simple chain and add as you sort things out


It sounds like your DI signal might be hitting the DAW a touch earlier than the amp. Not uncommon as there is potentially a small amount of latency in the amp chain. Its also possible the amp signal is inverted compared to the DI. If there is any latency, you just nudge the track that is late back so the transients line up. If the signal from one source is inverted, it will be obvious as the wave forms will track opposite of each other. Just enable the phase invert button on the track where the transients poke downward.

@Kurtis Marleau , this is your answer.

If one of your drive pedals is inverting phase (not uncommon), then a simple phase invert on the second track will fix the issue.

As with ANY DI EVER, an instrument cable>DI>desk will have less latency than instrument cable>pedal board>amp input>speaker>microphone. We are talking milliseconds here, but especially with bass frequencies, this can create an audible difference. In this instance, nudging the track with the longer latency (miced cabinet in this example) so the waveforms line up with the DI track will fix it.

You touched on another thing, the DI not sounding like the cabinet. This is something I struggled with for a long time, and unfortunately the only solution I found if you are dead set on using the DI is aggressive post EQ'ing to simulate the EQ curve of the speaker and cabinet. For cleaner tones the DI works great, but once anything above mild overdrive happens the top end is just egregious.

I am actually in the middle of putting together a rig for live use that uses a JHS Colour Box as the line to the house, basically functioning as an "amp sim" so the gain staging and EQ can be separately dialed for a sound to work for FOH. This way, I can dial my amp however I need to be comfortable on stage (not always what works best for FOH, IME).

I also do agree with the method of clean bass DI and reamping, while I rarely use it myself. It is a fool proof way, and even if I don't use it in this way, I ALWAYS record a clean DI as a fail safe in case I just completely missed the mark on the tone for the tracking.

You're entering into a world which can be very frustrating, but also very rewarding with a little education! Enjoy the ride, it will not only help you be a better player, but a more informed band mate and musician.

 

[FullumMusic]

You just open both waveforms next to each other, zoom in close enough to see the peaks, and then just grab and slide one over.
Thats why everyone is so confused by the question.

If it's phase, you slide it over until they align. Left/right in the timeline.

If it's polarity, it needs to be inverted at its current place in time, not moved in time. All values multiplied by -1 in the exact same spot.

 

[HelpImaRock]

If it sounds the way you want it to sound coming out of the cabinet, then just use a mic.

This is what I do. We take a DI straight out of the bass, direct to the board. Then we'll take the parallel out from the DI and run it through my normal board and amp, into the studio's cab. SM7B on one speaker, RE20 on another.