Pre-Amp Pedals versus Amps (Treat me like Im five)

[Sergius Durante]

Reading through the manual of the San-Amps pedal and comparing it to the new Orange Bass Butler, I realized something... An earth shattering revelation... I don’t even know how pre-amp pedals work in a live setting or in general to replace a normal bass amp.

I, like many people, are traditional, haul my back breaking cabinet and easily transportable Mesa Boogie Subway, but it baffles me as to how people play live or practice with Pre-amp pedals, even wondering about Geddy and his use of a PA system during shows (still don’t understand this).
But how does this work?
Do you still bring a cab and head?

Why would you use a pre-amp pedal versus head and cab, and how would the connection process go?

What would you use as speakers to connect to a pedal?

Should one consider the Sans-Amp or Bass Butler for use, be it as just another pre-amp or a stompbox for effects? (Kinda wondering as the Bass butler right now sounds amazing)

 

[hbarcat]

It helps to understand the history of live shows. Long ago, there were no amplifiers, so musicians needed to play their instruments loud enough to be heard acoustically by everyone in the audience.

The earliest amplified music was for vocalists. They sang or spoke into microphones which were plugged into amplifiers that powered speakers.

An amplifier has two basic parts.

1) A preamplifier, which converts the passive output of the microphone into a usable electric current (called line level voltge).

2) A power amplifier which converts the line level voltage from the preamp to enough wattage to drive a loudspeaker.

From the 1950's onward, most live music used amplifiers primarily for vocals or for close micing solo instruments. But eventually, electric guitar players used their own amplifiers on stage instead of going through the same PA system as the vocals. It wasn't until the 1970s that groups would commonly employ the practice of micing their stage amps and running them into the PA, which were becoming much more powerful to drive more speakers.

By the 80s, PA systems were powerful enough to fill venues with audiences of 100,000 or more. Guitar, bass, and keys amps were still used on stage but they were essentially redundant but musicians were reluctant to give them up. Mostly hard rock guitarists with tube amps wanted to keep that particular sound that couldn't be duplicated with solid state equipment.

It took several more decades for enough pioneering musicians to eliminate their onstage amps by opting to use DI boxes and some tonal processing Even the smallest venues have decent floor monitors and IEMs have become cheap and plentiful.

This is where we're at today in 2020. Almost every band from small time amateur to the biggest superstars now play with fairly quiet stage volume and minimal amp wattage (or none) with IEMs or floor wedges.

The bottom line is instruments still need to use a DI box or the equivalent but an onstage power amp and speaker is usually unnecessary, as long as the venue has an adequate PA

Until a few years ago, I brought a small amp and cab with me to shows and played at low volume to hear my bass on stage, but sent a line out from the preamp section to the house soundsystem. Lately, I bring a Sansamp BDDI box with me and plug into a channel on the board and hear myself with floor monitors. I'm too old and out if shape to drag unnecessary equipment to and from every show.

 

[Sid Fang]

I, like many people, are traditional, haul my back breaking cabinet and easily transportable Mesa Boogie Subway, but it baffles me as to how people play live or practice with Pre-amp pedals, even wondering about Geddy and his use of a PA system during shows (still don’t understand this).
But how does this work?

The pre-amp replaces the first stages of your bass amp - the part that warms up and tweaks (e.g.EQ) the raw signal. When you replace that first part of your amp with the pre-amp pedal, you need to have *something* to replace the rest of your amp. That *could* be just a pair of headphones (if your pre-amp has a headphone out). It *could* be a studio mixing console. It *could* be a venue PA. It *could* be a powered monitor.

Do you still bring a cab and head?

In most cases, no. I tend to do things the other way around. I prefer playing through a bass amp on stage, if space allows, but I'll throw my studio pre-amp pedal into my bag loading out, just so I've got it as a backup to run through the PA if I have an amp failure.

Why would you use a pre-amp pedal versus head and cab, and how would the connection process go.

Why? Less stuff to load in and out. Better stage monitoring (with a little luck).
Signal path is bass to pre-amp input, pre-amp output to PA mixing console (ideally XLR or TRS balanced 1/4" line jacks), PA output to monitor and mains speakers.

What would you use as speakers to connect to a pedal?

Normally you'd connect the pedal to a mixing desk or directly to a PA power amp (if it's the only signal in the mix, no need for a mixer). But you *could* run it directly to the line input of a self-powered PA monitor.

 

[Zbysek]

Do you still bring a cab and head?

It depends on circumstances. Sometimes I do (more often), sometimes I don't.

Why would you use a pre-amp pedal versus head and cab, and how would the connection process go?

Preamp pedal is used typically by players who rely on IEM (in-ear monitoring)... The player sends signal from his preamp to FOH. FOH sends him back his monitoring mix...

What would you use as speakers to connect to a pedal?

Some players do not use speakers cabinets on stage any more. They are using either headphones or floor monitors provided by FOH for their monitoring. Other players still bring their cabinets...

Should one consider the Sans-Amp or Bass Butler for use, be it as just another pre-amp or a stompbox for effects? (Kinda wondering as the Bass butler right now sounds amazing)

You can. In that case, you might want to plug the output of your preamp to FX return of your amp...to prevent having two preamps in your signal chain... But it's not neccessary.

 

[Zbysek]

Even the smallest venues have decent floor monitors.

My experience is different. Many venues rely on hired PA. And when the budget is short, there are no decent floor monitors...

Almost every band from small time amateur to the biggest superstars now play with fairly quiet stage volume and minimal amp wattage (or none) with IEMs or floor wedges.

Some do, some don't. Some bands still play with loud stage volume. It also depends on genre. There is definitelly a trend to move to quiet stage though...

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Simplest explanation is the name.

Pre- (before)
Amplification (to increase in value)

A preamp MAY include an eq or other signal modifiers .

 

[Spyrosaab]

Another advantage to pre-amp pedals to actual amps is usually you take just the one amp with its baked in sound due to cost and logistics of hauling it around, but can instead have a variety of different “amp” sounds using various pedal pres.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

My experience is different. Many venues rely on hired PA. And when the budget is short, there are no decent floor monitors...



Some do, some don't. Some bands still play with loud stage volume. It also depends on genre. There is definitelly a trend to move to quiet stage though...

Highly dependant upon the volume of the acoustic drum kit. Unless all in-ear , drums still set stage volume.

 

[Zbysek]

Highly dependant upon the volume of the acoustic drum kit. Unless all in-ear , drums still set stage volume.

Yes, indeed. What I meant is "ampless stage".

 

[hbarcat]

My experience is different. Many venues rely on hired PA. And when the budget is short, there are no decent floor monitors...



Some do, some don't. Some bands still play with loud stage volume. It also depends on genre. There is definitelly a trend to move to quiet stage though...

After further consideration I would agree that my statements are almost certainly not going to apply to everyone.

I believe I'm a bit spoiled living in the greater Chicagoland area, where there's an incredibly rich and diverse music scene and there are multitudes of venues of all sizes with decent sound systems that welcome bands and even pay them fairly well.

Also, with the exception of certain metal bands, musicians in this area rarely play with any stage volume at all. In the past decade, the practice of cranking your 100 watt tube full stack has been practically beaten out of everyone who wants to get a genuine gig anywhere.

 

[Zbysek]

After further consideration I would agree that my statements are almost certainly not going to apply to everyone.

I believe I'm a bit spoiled living in the greater Chicagoland area, where there's an incredibly rich and diverse music scene and there are multitudes of venues of all sizes with decent sound systems that welcome bands and even pay them fairly well.

Good for you!

Also, with the exception of certain metal bands, musicians in this area rarely play with any stage volume at all. In the past decade, the practice of cranking your 100 watt tube full stack has been practically beaten out of everyone who wants to get a genuine gig anywhere.

I have definitely seen a trend to move to ampless stage. However, it's usually based on the decision of the band/band leader. I don't feel any pressure to do so from promoters/venues...

 

[hbarcat]

I have definitely seen a trend to move to ampless stage. However, it's usually based on the decision of the band/band leader. I don't feel any pressure to do so from promoters/venues...

When I first started gigging in the late 1980s, every guitarist had at least a 100w (usually Marshall) half stack and yearned for the full stack. Bassists had the loudest amp head they could afford and wouldn't he caught dead on stage without two cabinets.

Sometime in the 90s, a few venues (the better ones, with their own PA and resident sound tech) started demanding that bands turn down their stage volume. It quickly became more widespread, and by the time 2010 or so came along, it was rare to see a band play with a loud stage volume. This is at the insistence of the venues around here.

I have to assume many other regions (in the U.S. or other countries) have different standards and practices.

 

[two fingers]

Reading through the manual of the San-Amps pedal and comparing it to the new Orange Bass Butler, I realized something... An earth shattering revelation... I don’t even know how pre-amp pedals work in a live setting or in general to replace a normal bass amp.

I, like many people, are traditional, haul my back breaking cabinet and easily transportable Mesa Boogie Subway, but it baffles me as to how people play live or practice with Pre-amp pedals, even wondering about Geddy and his use of a PA system during shows (still don’t understand this).
But how does this work?
Do you still bring a cab and head?

Why would you use a pre-amp pedal versus head and cab, and how would the connection process go?

What would you use as speakers to connect to a pedal?

Should one consider the Sans-Amp or Bass Butler for use, be it as just another pre-amp or a stompbox for effects? (Kinda wondering as the Bass butler right now sounds amazing)

Some of the other answer cover many of your questions. As for connectivity, it depends on the outputs on the pedal.

If it has an XLR (microphone) output, you simply run a mic cable from that output to a channel on the main mixer.

If it only has a 1/4" jack, you can run a guitar cable into a DI (direct box), and then run a mic cable from that to a channel on the mixer. Also, most DIs will have a 1/4' out as well. So if you played a show without good stage monitors, you could run a guitar cable from the DI to your amp as well.

Some preamp pedals have both. So you could run a mic cable to the mixer and a 1/4" to your amp.

Here's another caveat. Many bands that have gone ampless also use in ear monitors. These are great! (In my view) They not only allow to choose what you DO want in your mix. But they also allow you to (mostly) block out of your ear what you DON'T want. I think in ear monitors are a fantastic innovation.

Some, like me, are a glutton for punishment. So, often but not always, I will take an amp even though I use in ear monitors. I just happen to like the sound of my amps and appreciate a little air moving around me. Plus, not all of us in my bands are running in ears. So other band members like to hear my amp as well.

 

[Zbysek]

When I first started gigging in the late 1980s, every guitarist had at least a 100w (usually Marshall) half stack and yearned for the full stack. Bassists had the loudest amp head they could afford and wouldn't he caught dead on stage without two cabinets.

Sometime in the 90s, a few venues (the better ones, with their own PA and resident sound tech) started demanding that bands turn down their stage volume. It quickly became more widespread, and by the time 2010 or so came along, it was rare to see a band play with a loud stage volume. This is at the insistence of the venues around here.

I have to assume many other regions (in the U.S. or other countries) have different standards and practices.

Yep, the bigest rig I have ever had was the Ampeg rig I bought at the end of the 90s, when I started gigging. It was around 140 lbs. I suffered hernia from carrying it...

These days, my usual rig consists of 1x12 or 2x10 and weighs around 30lbs.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

When I first started gigging in the late 1980s, every guitarist had at least a 100w (usually Marshall) half stack and yearned for the full stack. Bassists had the loudest amp head they could afford and wouldn't he caught dead on stage without two cabinets.

Sometime in the 90s, a few venues (the better ones, with their own PA and resident sound tech) started demanding that bands turn down their stage volume. It quickly became more widespread, and by the time 2010 or so came along, it was rare to see a band play with a loud stage volume. This is at the insistence of the venues around here.

I have to assume many other regions (in the U.S. or other countries) have different standards and practices.

I was in Hollywood during the heyday of metal 2xfull stacks were common .
I myself had various rigs for a long while 2x810s with 2xSVT.
Now a single 15 35lb Neo Cab, So yeah.

 

[Zbysek]

But they also allow you to (mostly) block out of your ear what you DON'T want.

+1

So, often but not always, I will take an amp even though I use in ear monitors. I just happen to like the sound of my amps and appreciate a little air moving around me.

Me too. I find it odd when acoustic drums is the only sound on stage. I place my small rig close to the drumset to be able to lock-in with the drummer. Drummers appreciate it. Other bandmates seem to be ok with it.

 

[brianrost]

This is where we're at today in 2020. Almost every band from small time amateur to the biggest superstars now play with fairly quiet stage volume and minimal amp wattage (or none) with IEMs or floor wedges.

Definitely not true for most small time amateurs. This has been discussed many times here. Many of us in the trenches are still carrying our own small PAs that cannot carry the whole band. A PA that could do the job is too expensive and large for the average rock, blues, country band to carry around for bar gigs and most small bars have no PA. Small venues that are music rooms do, but it might not be much...how about a 4 channel Behringer board and one Behringer 12" powered speaker which is what one such room I've been playing for over 20 years supplies.

The trend for larger venues is definitely going ampless but when not carrying your own system and soundman, you are at the mercy of whatever the venue provides for monitoring. If you only play at church or in recording studios, sure, skip the amp. If you are already touring theaters or larger venues you aren't even reading this

Another advantage to pre-amp pedals to actual amps is usually you take just the one amp with its baked in sound due to cost and logistics of hauling it around, but can instead have a variety of different “amp” sounds using various pedal pres.

This is why most people use external preamps. They want either multiple tones or just more tonal options than their amp's front panel provides.

I use one when busking. My street amp is a Roland Street Cube EX which is super clean like a PA, low power and tiny speakers that a bass can easily fart out. Plug a preamp in front and I get a sound more like a bass amp with a big cab plus I have a high pass filter to prevent farting out to protect the speakers.

 

[hbarcat]

Definitely not true for most small time amateurs. This has been discussed many times here. Many of us in the trenches are still carrying our own small PAs that cannot carry the whole band. A PA that could do the job is too expensive and large for the average rock, blues, country band to carry around for bar gigs and most small bars have no PA. Small venues that are music rooms do, but it might not be much...how about a 4 channel Behringer board and one Behringer 12" powered speaker which is what one such room I've been playing for over 20 years supplies.

The trend for larger venues is definitely going ampless but when not carrying your own system and soundman, you are at the mercy of whatever the venue provides for monitoring. If you only play at church or in recording studios, sure, skip the amp. If you are already touring theaters or larger venues you aren't even reading this

I would have to agree with you.

I have to assume many other regions (in the U.S. or other countries) have different standards and practices.

Like I said, I've been spoiled by living in a region where decent house PAs are so common and even a lot of part time hobbyist bands have their own set of JBL Eon15s and 18" sub with a 16 channel Mackie board.

I hope I don't come off as a snob and in no way do I intend to disparage or put down other bands because they play gigs where their on stage amps carry the room because they lack PA support for the instruments.

I do realize how fortunate I am to live where live music is still appreciated by so many different venues.

 

[Hundred proof]

I’ve “developed” a front end basically pedals into a dedicated DI that gives me a workable sound to either house, amp or both together. I always use a stage amp, and don’t see that changing (doesn’t need to be loud)

 

[brocket]

Do you still bring a cab and head?
Why would you use a pre-amp pedal versus head and cab, and how would the connection process go?
What would you use as speakers to connect to a pedal?
Should one consider the Sans-Amp or Bass Butler for use, be it as just another pre-amp or a stompbox for effects?

80% of the time I play my own amp, the other 20% being with supplied amps. I like the vintage SVT sound, so I have a VT Bass DI that I play through (almost) everything. My main amp is a TC Electronic BH250. It's small and cheap, and I don't think it has much character baked in so it takes the sound of the VTDI quite well. I plug straight in from the VTDI, and run the amp flat. When I had an Aguilar Tonehammer for the backline, I used the effects loop return and bypassed the preamp. When I played through a V4B, I plugged straight in without the VTDI. When playing through the SWR at church, I take the DI straight out of the VTDI, but still use the SWR as my bass monitor. When the church moves to an ampless setup in a few months, I'll still have my VTDI to use.

If/when it's time to upgrade to a bigger amp, I'd likely go with a Quilter BassBlock or something similar that doesn't have a lot of baked in voice (eg. the GK sound, the Mesa sound, etc.) to use as an amp platform for the VTDI.

Having the VTDI allows me to have "my tone" in a bunch of different situations, with or without amps, and having the DI means I know what is being sent to the soundboard if other DI options aren't great (the SWR at church doesn't sound terrific).