Double Bass preamp for festival gig

Maple

Maple

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Feb 25, 2016
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#1
Hi, it’s been 5 or so years since I played a festival gig. Since Covid, I’ve changed basses and preamps so I’m not quite confident I know what gear to bring.

pre Covid I regularly played loud jazz gigs - amped bass to keep up with mic’d drums and horns. I had a different bass and had to always fiddle with knobs on my Felix to reduce nasally piezo sounds and notch out feedback.

now, my jazz gigs are low volume - just moderate amping to compete with a heavy handed drummer.

In that setting, I get a great tone using the Sarno black box with an FDeck after it to tame the lows and for phase switching. No knob twiddling. Maybe just flip the phase switch.

So for the festival, I’d like to just bring the Sarno/FDeck setup and let the sound guy do the rest. Should I also bring the Felix and plan on futzing with EQ?
 
#2
Maple said:
Hi, it’s been 5 or so years since I played a festival gig. Since Covid, I’ve changed basses and preamps so I’m not quite confident I know what gear to bring.

pre Covid I regularly played loud jazz gigs - amped bass to keep up with mic’d drums and horns. I had a different bass and had to always fiddle with knobs on my Felix to reduce nasally piezo sounds and notch out feedback.

now, my jazz gigs are low volume - just moderate amping to compete with a heavy handed drummer.

In that setting, I get a great tone using the Sarno black box with an FDeck after it to tame the lows and for phase switching. No knob twiddling. Maybe just flip the phase switch.

So for the festival, I’d like to just bring the Sarno/FDeck setup and let the sound guy do the rest. Should I also bring the Felix and plan on futzing with EQ?
Click to expand...

I would rather have tools and not need them, than need tools and not have them.

If I understand, you plan to go ampless. Is this correct?

It's not easy for an audio to dial in the sound for you monitor. In fact the channel strips on mixing consoles only have one EQ section, and it should be prioritized for main mix.

The channels sends on most mixers can be configured pre or post EQ. If you the sends are set up pre EQ, you get a flat unprocessed sound. If the sends are set up post EQ you get whatever the audio tech dials in. FYI the EQ requirement for the main mix and monitor mixes can be very different.

The audio tech may be able to adjust a global EQ on your mix, or he/she may be willing to make some degree of compromise to try and get your sound closer to what you want. But keep in mind the audio tech cannot hear what you hear on stage unless he/she comes up and listens (on stage).

If you are going ampless, I think it's fairly likely that you will benefit from having tone controls and one, or more notch filters at your finger tips.

If you plan to run through an amp, rather than the monitors, the odds of success are probably better. But keep in mind, the louder you need to play, the more corrective EQ is typically required. So if you will be able to play at your normal level, you may be fine. But if you need to turn up significantly louder than normal, at some point you will need EQ.
 
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#5
Wasnex said:
I would rather have tools and not need them, than need tools and not have them.

If I understand, you plan to go ampless. Is this correct?

It's not easy for an audio to dial in the sound for you monitor. In fact the channel strips on mixing consoles only have one EQ section, and it should be prioritized for main mix.

The channels sends on most mixers can be configured pre or post EQ. If you the sends are set up pre EQ, you get a flat unprocessed sound. If the sends are set up post EQ you get whatever the audio tech dials in. FYI the EQ requirement for the main mix and monitor mixes can be very different.

The audio tech may be able to adjust a global EQ on your mix, or he/she may be willing to make some degree of compromise to try and get your sound closer to what you want. But keep in mind the audio tech cannot hear what you hear on stage unless he/she comes up and listens (on stage).

If you are going ampless, I think it's fairly likely that you will benefit from having tone controls and one, or more notch filters at your finger tips.

If you plan to run through an amp, rather than the monitors, the odds of success are probably better. But keep in mind, the louder you need to play, the more corrective EQ is typically required. So if you will be able to play at your normal level, you may be fine. But if you need to turn up significantly louder than normal, at some point you will need EQ.
Click to expand...
As far as I know the pre/post selection is pre/post fader but always post eq on the channel strip of a board.
 
#6
DoubleMIDI said:
As far as I know the pre/post selection is pre/post fader but always post eq on the channel strip of a board.
Click to expand...

That has not been my experience. On inexpensive analog boards it may be fixed one way or the other. In some instances there is an internal jumper. On all of the digital boards I have used, the audio tech can select where the aux send is taken off.

From my A&H MixWizard 16 MK1 OM:
upload_2023-9-14_19-48-42.png

upload_2023-9-14_19-49-51.png

From the Yamaha LS9 OM.

Aux Sends are called Mixes. Normally a Vari mix is used.
upload_2023-9-14_20-0-50.png


I believe I marked the points where the Vari Aux can be taken off the signal path here:
upload_2023-9-14_20-5-57.png
 
Last edited:
#8
Maple said:
Hi, ………I had a different bass and had to always fiddle with knobs on my Felix to reduce nasally piezo sounds and notch out feedback.

now, my jazz gigs are low volume - just moderate amping to compete with a heavy handed drummer.

In that setting, I get a great tone using the Sarno black box with an FDeck after it to tame the lows and for phase switching. No knob twiddling. Maybe just flip the phase switch.

So for the festival, I’d like to just bring the Sarno/FDeck setup and let the sound guy do the rest. Should I also bring the Felix and plan on futzing with EQ?
Click to expand...

I’ve always taken my Grace Felix to large Festivals so if you still have it I’d recommend you take it. If you get into a low frequency rumble situation or pickup squealing because of your proximity to the monitor the Felix is your “multi tool” I recently had to use
mine to low cut out the bass response onstage from the monitors so I could hear my backline amp. Just my take. The Sarno is “icing on the cake” . I use a Red Eye in place of the Sarno.
 
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#13
I'd bring what ever i need to get a sound on stage i like, but if a festival i'd try to keep things as simple as possible for quicker turnarounds from band to band on stage. For me that just means bringing my combo amp and letting the sound guy take a direct feed from it. Optionally could bring a preamp to put in front of it, no harm there. A Felix does sound pretty nice :) You could then give the sound guy a direct feed from the Felix instead of the amp.
 
#14
What’s the festival? I’ve had reasonably good luck as long as I make known what I want and I’m not a dick about it… occasionally great monitor mixes.
As long as your preamp gets you most of the way there it shouldn’t be too tricky.
 
#16
Wasnex said:
That has not been my experience. On inexpensive analog boards it may be fixed one way or the other. In some instances there is an internal jumper. On all of the digital boards I have used, the audio tech can select where the aux send is taken off.

From my A&H MixWizard 16 MK1 OM:
View attachment 5189942
View attachment 5189943
From the Yamaha LS9 OM.

Aux Sends are called Mixes. Normally a Vari mix is used.
View attachment 5189950

I believe I marked the points where the Vari Aux can be taken off the signal path here:
View attachment 5189952
Click to expand...
But there is also mentioned that the standard is pre-fader and post-EQ.
This was the standard for analog mixers, not only for the cheap or smaller/simpler ones.

With digital mixers a lot more is possible like more aux sends (useable for individual monitor mixes) and more than two selectable pickup points like you have shown. Other digital mixers may duplicate the input signals for recording/FOH and monitoring purposes giving both the complete EQ individually.
Others only allow to take the signal post-EQ, pre-/post-fader, but for several two-track output mixdowns.
The console design of digital mixers can vary a lot.

From the perspective of most bass players (specially if one of the musicians operate the board) the pre-/post-faders the typical selection at hand that could be found in (almost) every useful board.
 
Last edited:
#18
DoubleMIDI said:
But there is also mentioned that the standard is pre-fader and post-EQ.
Click to expand...

Standard for the MixWizard 16 Mk1, but there is variation from analog mixer to analog mixer. I.E. post EQ is not an industry standard.

I would have to check, but I believe I moved the jumpers in my MixWizard to configure the pre-fader sends to pre-EQ.

Here is another example from the Ashley MX508 OM:
upload_2023-9-15_20-18-8.png


"Aux 1 is factory preset to pre-fader, pre-EQ."

Another example from the Mackey 1604VLZ OM:
upload_2023-9-15_20-23-22.png


Options for aux 1 and 2 are pre EQ or post fader. You would normally use pre EQ for monitors.

I believe Aux 3-6 on the 1604VLZ were fixed as post fader and intended for effects.
upload_2023-9-15_20-32-6.png
 
#19
DoubleMIDI said:
From the perspective of most bass players (specially if one of the musicians operate the board) the pre-/post-faders the typical selection at hand that could be found in (almost) every useful board.
Click to expand...


I don't agree with this. My preferred compromise is for the channel EQ to be adjusted to suit the house mix....and adjustments for the house mix are often very different from what is required on stage. So I prefer the monitor sends to be pre EQ. This is my personal position and I don't expect you to agree.

In order to serve the needs of both the house mix and monitor mix, you need two channel EQs. This can be achieved with a split snake and a dedicated monitor mixer. Or you can run two channels for each sound source. Not really realistic on a 16-channel analog board, but I have run Yamaha LS9-32 mixers where the inputs were dual assigned across fader level A and B; I.E. channel 1 and channel 33 are assigned the same source.

Source assignments continue:
2 ^ 34
3 ^ 35
4 ^ 36
etc

Channel 1(fader level A) is then used for the house mix, and channel 33 (fader level B) is used for the monitors. This sort of setup is somewhat confusing and labor intensive. The part I found most confusing was routing the effects from the house mix to the monitor mixes...this was a workaround to overcome the boards limited processing power.
 
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#20
Wasnex said:
Standard for the MixWizard 16 Mk1, but there is variation from analog mixer to analog mixer. I.E. post EQ is not an industry standard.

I would have to check, but I believe I moved the jumpers in my MixWizard to configure the pre-fader sends to pre-EQ.

Here is another example from the Ashley MX508 OM:
View attachment 5190887

"Aux 1 is factory preset to pre-fader, pre-EQ."

Another example from the Mackey 1604VLZ OM:
View attachment 5190890

Options for aux 1 and 2 are pre EQ or post fader. You would normally use pre EQ for monitors.

I believe Aux 3-6 on the 1604VLZ were fixed as post fader and intended for effects.
View attachment 5190891
Click to expand...
So even in the analog boards it depends on the board design and options.
You have more experience with larger and more expensive boards than me.

Beyond working with older a bit larger analog boards decades ago I have to live with older used or rather cheap gear …

BTW, I don’t feel it is wrong to show different perspectives and experiences here.
 
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