Double Bass Put the bow before the horse?

Blackjac97

Blackjac97

May 27, 2012
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#1
Hello DB TB

I am thinking about buying a double bass soon.

Last time I purchased one, one thing I found challenging was dealing with the lack of a bow. I was at the mercy of whatever bow was available at the place of purchase.

I have only ever played German, and sometimes only a French was available. Also, IMO/IME, the quality of a bow really translates in the playing experience, I.E. playing an amazing bass with a bow you don't like makes it harder to evaluate the bass.

I am wondering if it makes sense to buy a nice bow before I go bass shopping, so I can eliminate variations in bows from the decision on a bass. Also, once I buy the bass, I then already have my bow and don't have to worry about waiting for one.

Plus, if I bought a bass that came with a bow, I could choose which bow I liked better and sell the other one, recouping some of the cost of the bass.

What thinks you? Has anyone else ever done it this way?
 
#3
Another metaphor here might be that of the chicken and the egg.

You're correct regarding the importance of a good bow, but how do you evaluate a bow without an instrument to use it with? If you have a bass, then yeah, you could find the right bow without much trouble. If you don't have a bass, you're limited to shops with basses and bows. You couldn't, for example, order a bow online and expect to evaluate it easily.

Bows that come with instruments in package deals aren't generally fine bows.
 
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#5
Excellent point AG, I hear what you're saying.

When I was last playing upright, I was playing with the german bow that came with the bass, a Palatino VB-004.

(Edit: that is to say, a complete POS. I never liked the bow. Playing any of my friends' bows felt amazing by comparison)

I would be willing to spend as much as maybe even like $500 on a bow, just to know that I'm getting something decent. I played a buddy's carbon fiber bow once and hated the sound, but I'm sure they are not all equal.

I like the looks of the bows on the Gollihur website for example, or if there are others like the one you mentioned jallen, that are more or less a guarantee to not be a POS. I want good balance and good sound. I don't mind if it doesn't end up being my end all be all bow, but I want to get a known quantity at an excellent value.
 
#6
I think I can pull enough of my technique out of the cobwebs to at least be able to know if I like the balance of the bow. My sound will not be developed enough to say if it sounds amazing or not, but I will know good feel when I feel it. I am wondering if it would make sense to shoot for a bow with a low-ish weight to know I am getting decent balance?
 
#7
That vingo bow does look pretty good, and 133 grams is pretty light. How is the sound? I am always weary of the sound of cf bows. But maybe they have come a ways in the last 10 years.
 
#10
I would not go out of my way to buy the bow first. But if I came across a really good deal on a nice bow before I found a bass that likes me, I would not hesitate to take it home.

For the record I have a KC String stool I bought in anticipation of getting an upright. A deal came up, so I pounced. I also have some old bows from my high school years. Probably get a better new bow if I actually find an upright that will have me.
 
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#11
A lot of people underestimate what a good bow can bring to an instrument. My cello teacher told me not to feel bad if I spent more for my bow than my cello. At this point in my life I have four cello bows, two of which are collector's fancy bows worth a lot of money. They are nice, but not my favorite. My favorite is a sub-$500 bow that was in the case when I got my cello. And I have two bass bows, one is a pretty good older bow that I like okay, but the one I really like is a $100 new Chinese bow. So you never know.

But I definitely know that in both cases, my favorite bow is my favorite for a reason: it brings out the best in whatever instrument I play it with. So. I would say if you can find a bow or bows you like, have a luthier check on their health (warping, stripped screws, old repairs, etc.) and then go ahead and buy one so that you can give each of the instruments you try an even shot. It is always good to have two bows, anyway, for practical reasons, so later you can get another of lesser or greater value, depending on what you like.
 
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#12
AGCurry said:
Although it's no longer the favorite of my bows, I consider the KC Strings "pernambuco-wrapped" carbon-fiber bow to be darned good for $390. After I showed her mine, my teacher went and ordered a few for her other students.
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I have both French and German. My French weighs is at a ridiculous 150g but has good balance and can easily pull a dark, powerful tone. A friend who was a bass major at Indiana loves it. The German example is quick and a bit brighter than other Germans I’ve played. Although I believe CF bows are pretty consistent, there may be that odd duck occasionally.
I do know that those bows stamped CW are popular for them.
 
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#13
Your comments/questions convey that you are a pretty accomplished player and have a pretty good idea of what you wish for in a bow. But then you say you are willing to spend "as much as $500 on a bow" - which really isn't that much. I'm wondering what price range of basses you are considering. Because the concerns you are suggesting - getting the most out of a bowed bass - suggest to me a relatively pricey (<$2-3k) bass, which would likely merit more than a $500 bow. Just my opinion.

As Andy says, how do you try out one w/o the other? Some bow makers are willing to send out bows on trial basis. My wife got 5-6 fiddle bows sent to her by Coda (tho I think their bass bows exceed your price limit.) You might want to look into getting such a shipment before you go bass shopping and take them with you. And most shops will let you take out at least a couple of bows on a trial basis.

My wife bought me a CF bow sight unseen - in an effort to get me started on arco to play classical w/ her. Knowing nothing about bows, it seemed fine to me. As I recall, it cost around $300. French. Now, a few years later, I've looked into buying a nicer wood bow. Had a couple on trial - and didn't like either any better - or even as much. Maybe due to my arco limitations and what I'm used to.

You seem to have a good enough idea as to what you want in a bow in terms of weight and possibly length. I'd suggest you just bite the bullet and buy a CF bow in the $1-300 range and figure if you want to replace it down the line, it will be a decent backup beater bow. I bet if you buy a decent bow for $150 and don't beat the heck out of it, you could resell it for $100 - which wouldn't be too much of a loss.
 
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#14
Not trying to convey that I am an accomplished player. I'm not trying to get the most out of bowed bass. I do want to practice with a bow, but any sort of actual orchestral/chamber work is a distant eventuality, if at all. I am okay with "student" equipment, that is not garbage. What I was using when I was an actual bass student, was garbage. I want to get back into it, and I am at more or less a student level. When I was at my peak as a student, I could hold my own in the gigs I played. But, I'm very very rusty and in my mind, I need to consider myself almost back at square one.

I practiced A LOT when I was a student, thus my comments about being able to pull my technique of the cobwebs, etc. But that was 8-10 years ago. It's back there somewhere, and I remember comparing my bow to my peers' bows, and theirs were always better whether they were top dollar bows or not.

My budget for a bass is $1500-$3000. I would be happy with decent Kay/Engle sort of bass, or a decent shen, SB 80/88/90. I would stretch to a hybrid if the price and location were right. The basses on the gollihur website look nice to me, and the shipping is a big plus. I am considering driving to upton, I've been there once before and I really liked the upton standards, and they had a couple affordable blondes on hand which always appeal to me.

I bought an american standard from Nahrmann years ago. But other priorities in my life forced me to sell it. When I owned that bass, I had no bow. The way I was practicing when I was a student, I don't even like tuning a bass without a bow. I use bowed harmonics to tune and always liked doing that best.

So, when I say I'm willing to spend $500 on a bow, I am saying I'm okay with "student quality" as long as it is not garbage. Again, doesn't need to be my end all bow, but whatever I end up with will be a huge upgrade from what I had, which was the free one that came with Palatino I was using.

I will be primarily judging the bass on how it plays pizz, but I want a consistent bowing experience when comparing, and I want to spend 0 time owning a bass and not a bow. If I bought a bass first, I would likely need to buy bows online anyway. I live at least a 2-3hr drive from any bass/violin shop.

Maybe I need to give the CF bows another chance. I would consider buying any of the specific bows that have been suggested so far.

Basically, think of it this way: my ideal situation is to have bass be the final part of the puzzle. I want to get a bow, case, upright bass stand, set up the practice area, etc. and THEN find the bass. For me and my life, it would be too easy to get the bass first, and then leave it in the case and never buy the bow, and have this never get off the ground. I am trying to set myself up with a low-friction entry back into upright. I want to get the bass and have everything I need to hop right into lessons and a regular practice routine, from day 1 of owning the bass. I have a family (some of the priorities I sold the Standard for), and there will be nights I only have 30 minutes to practice. I don't want to spend the first 5 taking it out of the bag and setting the end pin. I want to pull it off the stand, tune, and start playing.

When I was an actual student, I never took the time I needed to really get myself set up with decent stuff, and it was a contributing factor (not the only factor) to me drifting away from music in the first place.

Sorry for the novel/overexplaining, thank you all for the help and advice!
 
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#15
You've obviously thought a considerable amount about this. I'm sure folk more capable and experienced than I will chime in.

I suspect I am underestimating the distances involved, but I would suggest your first step would be to plan a trip to Upton. (Just checked - Bangor to Upton is a shade over 5 hrs.) I'd be surprised if there were many other shops at which you could try as large a number of a great variety of basses. You should ask, but I suspect they have a good variety of bows available as well.

In anticipation of future comments, given all you say, I think you will likely quickly become dissatisfied w/ a Kay/Engle ply.

Frame of reference - my 2 basses are an Engle ply strung w/ guts, and an Upton hybrid w/ Evah Weichs. The work I have put in with my newer Upton has improved the sound I get out of my ply. I'm in a different place than you, such that I am very happy having 2 very different basses. I honestly do not know what sort of bass I would buy if I were limited to only 1.
 
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#16
Ed S said:
You've obviously thought a considerable amount about this. I'm sure folk more capable and experienced than I will chime in.

I suspect I am underestimating the distances involved, but I would suggest your first step would be to plan a trip to Upton. (Just checked - Bangor to Upton is a shade over 5 hrs.) I'd be surprised if there were many other shops at which you could try as large a number of a great variety of basses. You should ask, but I suspect they have a good variety of bows available as well.

In anticipation of future comments, given all you say, I think you will likely quickly become dissatisfied w/ a Kay/Engle ply.

Frame of reference - my 2 basses are an Engle ply strung w/ guts, and an Upton hybrid w/ Evah Weichs. The work I have put in with my newer Upton has improved the sound I get out of my ply. I'm in a different place than you, such that I am very happy having 2 very different basses. I honestly do not know what sort of bass I would buy if I were limited to only 1.
Click to expand...

An advantage of dealing with a shop that sells a "line" of basses is that you can typically "trade up" from their lower-tier models to their higher-tier ones.
 
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#17
The primary thing I would say I will end up playing are pit gigs for musicals. That has always been what I end up playing the most, and I thoroughly enjoy it. I think it would be fun to play blue grass too, and a I think a professional goal that's more reachable for me than to play in orchestra or chamber, is to get into one of the big bands in my area.

I agree that having two basses would be ideal. Probably can't afford it for the moment though.

When I bought the Standard, Nahrmann also had a nice Shen 150. It was a buck and a half cheaper. To this day I wish I had bought that one instead, I probably would have been able to keep it and afford the other life expenses I encountered.
 
#19
Blackjac97 said:
I genuinely hadn't considered this. I.E., not to put words into upton's mouth, I know they are on here, but is that something that they do?
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It's worth a phone call! I mentioned it because that's how KC Strings does business, and I'd be surprised if other maker shops didn't do the same.
 
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#20
Let's get real deep:

I started playing electric when I was 12 years old.

Decided I wanted to go to school for music.

HAD to play upright to get into music school. Bought the only upright available in my area, a Palatino VB-04 for $600. I'm sure I don't need to convince anyone here that playing electric DOES NOT really translate to having good upright technique.

On top of trying to play at a college level as essentially a beginner on my instrument, my bass had a maple fingerboard painted black, and was so badly warped that it couldn't be setup without spending 2-3x what it cost.

I really, really struggled to feel at home on that bass.

I met a girl, etc. etc. and decided at the time, I wanted to get some studies in a math/science field, to have "a more secure career choice than just music." Switched to BA in music from performance, picked up computer science. that's how I graduated

After spending years focusing on my family and just being a tech wage slave, not playing and being miserable about my career, I accepted a gig for a high school musical. It brought everything back to me, was the happiest I've been in years.

So, I've decided tech is just my day job, my real passion and career will be my music career and the gigs I play and I want to try and get into more and more "professional" gigs. I lost my only regular gig because I don't own an upright anymore. So, here I am, trying to buy one.

But now, instead of doing it because I feel like I need to, I'm doing it because I want to, and I'm doing it on my own terms as I'm able to as an adult with an income. I'm setting my expectations for upright more reasonably. I want a bow that balances in my hand.
 
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