Question about theory and Black Narcissus

Nov 4, 2010
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Thank you for providing the invaluable service of contributing your knowledge to those eager to learn. That said, I looking to gain further knowledge about jazz music and theory in general. I currently listening to the "standards" in the Real Book to help get a better "feel" for what is jazz music, and how to play jazz. My question is the chord progression of the song starting Ab-7 ,Bb-7/Ab Ab-7, Bb-7/Ab and progressing to G#-7/F#,F#,G#-7/F#, and finally to AM7b5,FM7b5 and finally finish with CM7b5. And I'm looking for some help in understand the change in key(if in fact there is one), why and how it works . I still a relative novice to jazz but I'm listening intently and trying to get a better grasp. Any information is helpful, I hope this question is not to rudimentary. thank you
 
Hi,
Black Narcissus is one of many tunes that are not completely diatonic. They do not fit the mold of numeric ii-V7-I.
Figuring out the layout of the tune helps me learn it. Here is how I perceive the tune:The Ab(G#) pedal bass note stays while the chords move up and back diatonically (Ab- to Bb-) in the first 7 bars. It then "resolves" in bar 8 to CbMaj7#11 The same thing in the next 7 bars with a Gb(F#) pedal (Gb- to Ab-) with a "resolution" to AMaj7#11 with an F# in the bass. The last 8 bars use parallel Major Seven #11 chords moving in a pattern up a whole step, over a fourth up a whole step again (Eb/F/Bb/C) The last two bars continue parallel Major chords but move twice as fast in a scalar fashion ( /G Ab/Bb C/ ).
If a composer writes a chord that has a designated bass note, that is our cue for what to play as a bassist.Notice that on the recording by Joe Henderson with Ron Carter that Ron plays many wonderful rhythmic and register variations of the one note pedal and stays close to the root movement throughout.
As a soloist, Lydian is great sound to use on those parallel chords.
Many modern tunes have non-diatonic chord movement that may seem to be a random collection of sounds at first and take a bit to understand how they are put together. Here is a fun thing to try that will expand your ears: Sit at the piano and play one note. See how many different chords you can play where that note still fits as a different color tone. Short example: Note to keep repeating is C: CMaj7 - root, BbMaj7 - 9th, D7 or D-7 C is the 7th, DbMaj7 - C is Maj 7, Gb7 or GbMaj7 it is#11, G-7 the 11th (G-11), G7 (drop the B and keep the C it is G sus) etc.....

I hope this helps.
 
Thank you for the reply, there is alot in your reply for me digest, research and use to gain further understanding. I feel my problem began where I was trying to fit the piece into a particular progression, and as such got completely lost. While, I'm sure no one book or class can give you command of music or theory, can you recommend any reading material that can give me a good foundation when it comes to gaining a better understand of the theory behind some of these more complex jazz pieces. I'm am excited to try these exercise you suggested and see what I can gain from it. Thank you for your time.
 
Dan Haerle is a good source. I studied with him decades ago.

I posted this on the other place you asked this question about Black Narcissus:

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I listened to this track - what a concept. It had been years... I made some chord alterations in the 'last 8 measures'.

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I don't believe you have the "correct" changes.

Don't necessarily think the Real Book has the right changes - it often doesn't.

I wouldn't say that there is a "key", rather different tonal centers. The third 8 measures?

The tune is in 3-sections, each 8 measures long.

First 8 measures:
|| Abm7 | Bbm7/Ab | Abm7 | Bbm7/Ab | Abm7 | Bbm7/Ab | Abm7 | CbMaj7(b5) || - Or should it be CbMaj7(#11) or CbMaj7(#4)?

Second 8 measures (down a whole-step):
|| Gbm7 | Abm7/Gb | Gbm7 | Abm7/Gb | Gbm7 | Abm7/Gb | Gbm7 | BbbMaj7(b5) || - Or could it be BbbMaj7(#11) or BbbMaj7(#4)?

Third 8 measures:
|| EbMaj7(b5) | FMaj7(b5) | BbMaj7(b5) | CMaj7(b5) | EbMaj7(b5) | FMaj7(b5) BbMaj7(b5) | B7sus4/G AbM7(#4b9) | BbMaj7(b5) CMaj7(b5) ||

What notes to play a solo over?

Looks like the First 8 one could select notes from the Ab Dorian (i.e., Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, Eb, F, Gb), or find a pentatonic scale from that collection of notes. If you analyze this in the Dorian mode, you have im7 - Abm7, iim7 - Bbm7, IIIM7(+11) - CbMaj7(#11).

Second 8 - Gb Dorian, or some pentatonic. Same analysis as the first 8, but down a step.

The Third 8 - use the notes from Lydian scales based off each of the chord roots (i.e., CMaj7(b5) - C Lydian: C, D, E, F#, G, A, B). There seems to be two non-Lydian-type chords - B7sus4/G AbM7(#4b9) - at the seventh measure..

ALL of the XMaj7(b5) chords might be best labeled XMaj7(#4).

Use the melody for guidance.

Some will say that each of the first two sections are in some Mode, perhaps so, if it makes it easier to find a bag-o-notes, go ahead (many do).

Is this worth analyzing as you would a Mozart piece - your call. The 3rd 8 will be difficult. Black Narcissus wasn't composed during the Common Practice Period. :cool: This is more Impressionistic-influence (?). :eek:

I do NOT guarantee the above referenced chords. Get the Joe Henderson recording. This is NOT a beginner's piece. :D

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:eek:

Someone wrote a paper to get a "doctoral" degree. on this piece (harmony/solo). I should go back to college and pick up a few more degrees. :D