Questions about SS's, technique, and setups.

[Exploited93]

I know this has probably been discussed a million times on here and I apologize for opening up this rabbit hole, but I don't know where else to turn too. I've used a Squier VM Jazz for a little over a year now as my primary axe. I practice about 2-4 times a week for about 1-2hrs at most. About 6 months ago, I started getting pain and cramping in my fretting hand. I looked up countless videos and threads on better technique, proper neck setups, etc. During the time I was researching all this, I gave my hands a break and didn't play for about a month and a half (longest month in my life). Taking the advice I had (keep wrist straight/only slightly curved, don't press too hard, play relaxed, etc etc) I applied that too my playing. I soon discovered that a harder touch was required to prevent buzz. Certain that this whole thing was because of my poorly set up neck, I took it to a local luthier. I asked for the action to be lowered as far as it can and even replaced to strings with lighter gauge flats. The luthier said he got the strings lowered as far a he can but that I would need to have the frets filled to go any further because they're uneven or something to that degree (not very knowledgeable in that department yet lol). I took my bass home and tested it out. To be honest, I don't even know if the man lowered my action at all.. I'm no luthier, but from examining the neck and frets, I don't understand why the action can't be lowered even just a little more. I understand slight adjustment can make a huge difference, but the action is still pretty damn high? It still requires a great amount of pressure to prevent buzz. After the "adjustment" pain felt like it was residing. Personally, I attribute this to using better technique and not the setup, but who knows. Maybe it was both. But unfortunately about 4 months since the adjustment, it's come back. And it feels like it's worse.

Anyway, to wrap up this long story, what advice does anyone have more me? Does it sound like bad technique? Bad set-up? Both? Would uneven frets really prevent a luthier from lowering the action that much? Would a shorter scale bass be a better option? I'm a pretty big dude (6'5) but I'd say my hands aren't THAT big for my height or flexible for that matter. Maybe a SS would help alleviate some tension? I really need some options right now... This whole thing is really bumming me out. I absolutely LOVE playing bass. It would kill me to have to stop.

 

[Mekana]

For me, the short scale helped my shoulder the most. (Shorter reach out to the nut.) My short scales also have narrow string spacing, light tension/flexible strings, and low action. Those factors have helped my fretting hand the most as far as the instrument goes. (You may be fine with a regular scale bass with lower action; either filing the frets for a better set up, or looking at a new bass with lower action may be a good place to start.) I am also seeing a chiropractor, which has also helped.

 

[Inara]

Uneven frets can definitely create a situation where the action can't be lowered without buzzing. As for short scale ...

I'm back to playing 34" scale now, but was in a similar situation a while back. I tuned down to D and put a capo on the second fret, which basically turns it into a ~30" scale. Tension was noticeably lighter. I really enjoyed it, and played that way (including a bunch of shows) for a couple of months.

I'd recommend trying this and seeing what you think. It lets you see what it will basically be like without having to buy a bass first. You can also tune down a half step and capo on the first fret, which will show you what a ~32" scale bass will feel like.

 

[Bass V]

how much space is there between the first fret and the string? how much at the 3rd and 7th?
starting at the nut, if your neck is fine and your bridge saddles are in the ballpark then you want as little space as you can get away with at those first frets, refining everything else follows that. make sure the nut is cut well.

 

[Exploited93]

how much space is there between the first fret and the string? how much at the 3rd and 7th?
starting at the nut, if your neck is fine and your bridge saddles are in the ballpark then you want as little space as you can get away with at those first frets, refining everything else follows that. make sure the nut is cut well.

Unfortunately, I left it at my guitarist house so I can't check, but I'm fairly certain there's a good amount of space. Are fenders action always so high like that? Like can you get a Squier/fender to have low action? I played on an Ibanez the other week and it felt like I barely had to push down the fret.. I had two Squiers, a P Bass and my current jazz and they both seem to have this issue. Even when I play an expensive Fender, same issue.

 

[Exploited93]

For me, the short scale helped my shoulder the most. (Shorter reach out to the nut.) My short scales also have narrow string spacing, light tension/flexible strings, and low action. Those factors have helped my fretting hand the most as far as the instrument goes. (You may be fine with a regular scale bass with lower action; either filing the frets for a better set up, or looking at a new bass with lower action may be a good place to start.) I am also seeing a chiropractor, which has also helped.

What kind of short scales do you own?

 

[Bass V]

Unfortunately, I left it at my guitarist house so I can't check, but I'm fairly certain there's a good amount of space. Are fenders action always so high like that? Like can you get a Squier/fender to have low action? I played on an Ibanez the other week and it felt like I barely had to push down the fret.. I had two Squiers, a P Bass and my current jazz and they both seem to have this issue. Even when I play an expensive Fender, same issue.

there should be no overt pressure needed to properly fret anywhere on the neck even with higher action, if everything is correct so a proper setup can be completed. if you can slide a dime under a string at the 1st fret then that's a ton of space, this can happen with poor QC, but hard players need extra space so get some files and learn to file the nut right and you'll help yourself. some strings are very high tension as well, a softer set might help. the rabbit hole of trying various strings is waiting for you lol

 

[JimmyM]

I've always loved short scales, but I never got hand pains with a long scale. A long time ago, I learned about safe techniques and never doing anything that can cause pain. I had to with such small hands. So now all I ever get is shoulder pain from 45 years of slinging a bass on one shoulder.

 

[gln1955]

I love my short scales, but I don't think they are magic for eliminating hand pain unless you have some significant medical issue. If you like your VM, invest in getting the frets leveled and the nut cut to where you can get a nice low action. That, along with strings with a lower tension should do the trick.

 

[Mekana]

What kind of short scales do you own?

The short scales I am playing right now are 30” scale 5 string Brice basses. They have pretty narrow string spacing (16 mm) and mine have been set up for low action. One is strung with TI Jazz rounds, and the others with LaBella tapewounds... all of them are very flexible strings. At least two of these basses (and maybe all three) needed the nut worked on to get the action nice and low (and also to accommodate the tape wound strings).

I’ve tried a bunch of different short scale four strings, and so far the ones that feel the best to me are Fender Mustang P/Js. Wider string spacing (I think 19mm?), but with only 4 strings, my fretting hand doesn’t have to stretch as far across the neck, so it hasn’t been an issue. I’ve been able to get nice low action on those, as well! (They aren’t getting played right now, because my current band is just easier with the 5’s.)

Another thing to look at is whether a thinner or chunkier neck profile front to back works better for your hand comfort. I don’t currently own an Ibanez, but I believe they have a pretty good reputation for playing comfort with necks on the thinner side.

 

[DDXdesign]

I like a shorty for fret spacing, but a couple of them I've tried have had such thin and/or narrow necks that I traded finger comfort for thumb-joint discomfort (the big meaty joint where your thumb goes into your palm). So I like one with a little bit chunkier neck, and/or I often like medium scale as a happy middle ground =0)

 

[IamGroot]

Possibly consider seeing a qualified bass instructor to check out your technique?

Bass shouldnt hurt.

 

[Nedmundo]

Unfortunately, I left it at my guitarist house so I can't check, but I'm fairly certain there's a good amount of space. Are fenders action always so high like that? Like can you get a Squier/fender to have low action? I played on an Ibanez the other week and it felt like I barely had to push down the fret.. I had two Squiers, a P Bass and my current jazz and they both seem to have this issue. Even when I play an expensive Fender, same issue.

I've never owned a Squier, but I've had MIM, MIJ, and MIA Fenders, and not all of them would set up with low action. My 2003 Am. Series Jazz, 2004 Am. Series Precision, and 1999 Am. Deluxe Precision would set up pretty low, but not the others, which included a 2008 Am. Std. Jazz V that didn't set up that low even after getting the frets leveled with a Plek machine. The MIM Jazz didn't set up very low either.

And part of this, I think, has to do with fretboard radius. Flatter fretboards set up a little lower, which Fender even prescribes in its setup manual, and my G&L basses with 12" radii and Plek treatment get lower action than any Fender I've owned, most of which had 9.5" radii. (My 2003 Jazz gets close, but not quite there.) For me, the flatter fretboards also reduce effort generally, but it's probably the opposite for many players. Just depends on your geometry and preferences.

I mention this partly because you liked the Ibanez. I'm not sure which model you tried, but some of them have flatter fretboards and fairly shallow neck profiles, which reduce playing effort for some, including me. For me, flexible strings also help, and I've gravitated toward DR strings with round cores.

Also, even one high fret can cause buzzing, and prevent your action from getting as low as it would otherwise. I might be confronting this issue on a bass, because I'm getting lots of buzzing at the fifth fret, but nowhere else on the neck, and it isn't setting up as low as it should. I'm planning to take it to my luthier soon.

 

[Exploited93]

I love my short scales, but I don't think they are magic for eliminating hand pain unless you have some significant medical issue. If you like your VM, invest in getting the frets leveled and the nut cut to where you can get a nice low action. That, along with strings with a lower tension should do the trick.

I think that's what I'm gonna do this weekend.
Any strings you can recommend?

Possibly consider seeing a qualified bass instructor to check out your technique?

Bass shouldnt hurt.

I thought about doing that. I'd really like too. Having access to online lessons is nice and all, but I hate not actually having someone in person to tell me. I'm worried about the pricing though. I know several experienced bassists, but they all kinda taught themselves. Id like to learn from a professional I guess.

 

[bassfreakah]

Don’t forget your neck has to be straight in order to get lower action.
I see people all the time lowering the bridge with way to much relief in the neck expecting results to no avail.

 

[Mushroo]

Post some photos or videos of your playing technique, if you want useful tips.

The amount of force to fret a bass string, should be about the same force it takes to type on your computer keyboard. If your hands are more tired after playing bass then after typing a few emails, then something is wrong with the setup of the instrument, you are playing with too much strain in your hands.

The difference between a regular 34" bass and a short scale 30" is 2 frets. The difference of switching to short scale is like the difference when you shift your hand up 2 frets on the bass. For example the difference between playing a C Major scale and playing a D Major scale.

You can get some immediate relief by tuning your bass down a whole step to DGCF tuning and putting a capo at the 2nd fret. This essentially converts your 34" bass into a 30" short scale. If you find you really like that setup, then you might be a good candidate for a "real" short scale bass.

 

[brianrost]

If you need lower tension, use lighter gauge strings. Also have the frets leveled (filed). No sense playing with uneven frets.

Getting a fret job and lighter strings is a lot cheaper than switching to short scale basses.

 

[Chrisk-K]

Have a "real luthier" level the frets and lower the action. Then, use thinner strings.

 

[BassBrass]

I'm a pretty big dude (6'5) but I'd say my hands aren't THAT big for my height or flexible for that matter.

A big dude heading into inflexibility and pain just from bass playing...whats your diet? Less meat, more water, vegetables for minerals, eliminate processed carbs, some more antioxidents, vit c etc. and stretching/TaiChi movement, maybe alpha lipoic acid...

 

[micguy]

Have a "real luthier" level the frets and lower the action. Then, use thinner strings.

Ding ding ding - we have a winner. I'm fairly tall (not as tall as you), and have huge hands (though they don't look big on me). My bet is it's the force you're exerting, and not the scale length that's the root of your issues. A short scale is actually more difficult for me to play, as things are crammed together too much. At 6'5", I can't imagine a short scale is more ergonomic for you. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain I'm not.

I play very light gauges (35/50/70/95 (and a 130 on my 5 strings) in rounds (rounds of the same gauge require less tension than flats, as there are voids between the windings (which means less mass, and therefore less tension for the same tuning)) - the tensions on my strings are all in the low to mid 30's pound range. With flats and a high action, you're going to be using a LOT more force than me to fret a note cleanly - that's almost certainly where your issue is. While it may cost money to have your frets leveled, it's FAR cheaper than hand surgery. I had wrist issues, which sidelined me for a decade. I play wide necked, long scale basses, and have no issues, so long as the action is low, and the string tensions are also low.