Room mic technique

Dec 8, 2006
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Milwaukee, WI
I’m looking for the best method for using room mics to record a medium sized room with musicians placed all around it, recording in stereo, and keeping the recording as mono-compatible as possible.

My understanding of a blumlein pair is that I’d have to avoid placing musicians in half of the full 360 degrees to avoid phasing issues.

And a spaced pair of omnis, when summed to mono, I’d have phasing issues.

Would an X-Y using cardioids near the floor pointed towards the ceiling be an idea? Or is an Ambisonic setup really the only thing that will do what I’m looking for?
 
One Omni in the middle of the room works the best for Mono of the whole room. I think a lot of people would be surprised how well a single omni works.

You can also play with M/S microphones to see if that works out for you
Mid/Side (MS) Mic Recording Basics | Universal Audio

There's many VST plugins that work to minimize phase issues when mixing/matching mics like Waves' InPhase
 
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My understanding of a blumlein pair is that I’d have to avoid placing musicians in half of the full 360 degrees to avoid phasing issues.
Are you confusing a Blumlein pair with a coincident pair? With a Blumlein the alignment of two figure-8 capsules ends up being pretty forgiving in terms of phase relationships, whereas a coincident pair would behave as you describe.

Regardless, if mono compatibility is a major consideration then I would follow what @seamonkey suggested and use a single omni mic. Position the mic and performers to adjust the level balance being captured.
 
Forgive the fact that this doesn’t directly answer your question.

My thought reading the initial post was that in order to be able to give an optimal response to this question, more specific information would be required.


What are the approximate dimensions of the room?

What are the acoustics like if you clap your hands in the middle of the room?

Is it a lively room with highly reflective walls? Is it an acoustically absorbent, dead sounding, plush, warm and richly furnished room?


How many mics do you have at your disposal and of what type of characteristics?

What instruments are to be recorded, how many of them and how are they to be dispersed around the room?

When they are in situ, how does it sound? Well balanced or not? What problems do you detect, analyse and identify?


The presence of physical bodies in the room will affect the reflective absorption so bear that in mind.

Live bleed from mics can if well placed, act as a kind of cohesive glue that improved the overall sound of the ensemble in a recording.

Whereas, sound engineers usually prefer to keep differing instruments completely isolated from one another, so there are two schools of thought, and the experience of the engineer in mic placement and technique is the decisive factor regarding the former approach.


As you pin down clearly all these various factors in your own mind, my hunch is that they will push you towards a particular approach, given the room, number of instruments (and how they project their sound), what mics are available to you.

A clear way forward should emerge as the best approach.

But like a doctor with a patient. The better the initial diagnosis of the problem, the easier to identify and apply an optimal solution.

Good Luck with your recording.

You may find this link about an old acquaintance interesting.

The Michael Gerzon Story | Into The Soundfield (ox.ac.uk)

Michael Gerzon Audio Pioneer (michaelgerzonphotos.org.uk)
 
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Are you confusing a Blumlein pair with a coincident pair? With a Blumlein the alignment of two figure-8 capsules ends up being pretty forgiving in terms of phase relationships, whereas a coincident pair would behave as you describe.

Regardless, if mono compatibility is a major consideration then I would follow what @seamonkey suggested and use a single omni mic. Position the mic and performers to adjust the level balance being captured.

On the AEA website I found this quote regarding Blumlein recording: “Sound directly entering a side quadrant may be out-of-phase since it is being picked up from both the positive and negative lobes.”

OneMic: Recording Bands With a Single Ribbon Mic | AEA Ribbon Mics
 
Forgive the fact that this doesn’t directly answer your question.

My thought reading the initial post was that in order to be able to give an optimal response to this question, more specific information would be required.


What are the approximate dimensions of the room?

What are the acoustics like if you clap your hands in the middle of the room?

Is it a lively room with highly reflective walls? Is it an acoustically absorbent, dead sounding, plush, warm and richly furnished room?


How many mics do you have at your disposal and of what type of characteristics?

What instruments are to be recorded, how many of them and how are they to be dispersed around the room?

When they are in situ, how does it sound? Well balanced or not? What problems do you detect, analyse and identify?


The presence of physical bodies in the room will affect the reflective absorption so bear that in mind.

Live bleed from mics can if well placed, act as a kind of cohesive glue that improved the overall sound of the ensemble in a recording.

Whereas, sound engineers usually prefer to keep differing instruments completely isolated from one another, so there are two schools of thought, and the experience of the engineer in mic placement and technique is the decisive factor regarding the former approach.


As you pin down clearly all these various factors in your own mind, my hunch is that they will push you towards a particular approach, given the room, number of instruments (and how they project their sound), what mics are available to you.

A clear way forward should emerge as the best approach.

But like a doctor with a patient. The better the initial diagnosis of the problem, the easier to identify and apply an optimal solution.

Good Luck with your recording.

You may find this link about an old acquaintance interesting.

The Michael Gerzon Story | Into The Soundfield (ox.ac.uk)

Michael Gerzon Audio Pioneer (michaelgerzonphotos.org.uk)
Thanks for the thoughtful response, I’ll check out those links. I’m on my phone so I can’t get too detailed right now, but the ultimate use will be kind of varied. I like keeping a room mic set up all the time in my rehearsal/recording room. Sometimes I’m recording acoustic guitar and upright bass, sometimes a full rock band, sometimes in between.

If it’s casual I’ll just turn on a room mic and record while we play, if it’s more serious I turn on close mics and DIs and take more time setting things up. This question is from being kind of lazy :) I’d like to just have one permanent room mic set up all the time that will be useful for whatever I’m doing.

I have a decent variety of mics and am willing to buy others. I currently use a pair of Cascade Fat Heads in a Blumlein setup.

The mono thing is kind of an oddball desire - the sound system in my kitchen is an old tube thing that’s mono. When I listen back there sometimes I find instruments kind of disappearing. It’s not the stereo to mono summing only grabbing the L or R, the summing is happening correctly. That’s when I started learning more about the technique and I think it’s a placement thing.

So I could just try to be more careful about placement, but I figured I’d bounce off the wisdom of Talkbass and look for ideas. Or I could just stick with mono, as suggested, and use one Omni. Or I could just live with it not sounding quite right while I cook! Who else does mono these days anyway ;)
 
On the AEA website I found this quote regarding Blumlein recording: “Sound directly entering a side quadrant may be out-of-phase since it is being picked up from both the positive and negative lobes.”

OneMic: Recording Bands With a Single Ribbon Mic | AEA Ribbon Mics
That quote is accurate but is different from your original thought of keeping performers out of half of the space. Blumlein pairs require two figure-8 microphones and thus you have four lobes at 90-degree intervals. There will always be some phase interactions that occur between lobes, but a source becomes destructively out of phase when it occupies multiple lobes at time or frequency intervals that cause comb filtering in an unpleasant way. Your original statement feels like you're confusing a coincident pair, also known as an XY which is typically done with a pair of cardioid, hypercardioid or supercardioid mics and does result in a hemispherical polar pattern and a negative/dead space at the rear.

Since mono compatibility is a stated goal you can also try mid-side, which has 100% mono compatibility as the folded result simply ignores the side mic. I've never personally liked mid-side for much but it has its uses. Adjusting the balance between the mid channel and the left/right (with one phase inverted) side channels in your DAW allows for a cool way to control stereo image width in post.
 
That quote is accurate but is different from your original thought of keeping performers out of half of the space. Blumlein pairs require two figure-8 microphones and thus you have four lobes at 90-degree intervals. There will always be some phase interactions that occur between lobes, but a source becomes destructively out of phase when it occupies multiple lobes at time or frequency intervals that cause comb filtering in an unpleasant way. Your original statement feels like you're confusing a coincident pair, also known as an XY which is typically done with a pair of cardioid, hypercardioid or supercardioid mics and does result in a hemispherical polar pattern and a negative/dead space at the rear.

Since mono compatibility is a stated goal you can also try mid-side, which has 100% mono compatibility as the folded result simply ignores the side mic. I've never personally liked mid-side for much but it has its uses. Adjusting the balance between the mid channel and the left/right (with one phase inverted) side channels in your DAW allows for a cool way to control stereo image width in post.

Thank you. I’m learning here so I might still be wrong. With mid-side, suppose I record 4 musicians arranged in a square/diamond. 2 on each end of the mid axis, and 2 on each end of the side axis. In stereo the mid musicians would be in the middle and the sides on each side L R. But when going mono, the side information sums to zero, and it’s as if I’m only using the mid mic. So the volume of the sound of the musicians on the sides will also diminish.

I should do some systematic experimenting with my current Blumlein setup. Maybe some of the mono issues I noticed were something else entirely, like a misplaced or twisted placement or mismatched preamp gain or some other mistake. I could figure a way to rotate the mic round and round while playing piano or something.


Thank again.
 
Forgive the fact that this doesn’t directly answer your question.

My thought reading the initial post was that in order to be able to give an optimal response to this question, more specific information would be required.


What are the approximate dimensions of the room?

What are the acoustics like if you clap your hands in the middle of the room?

Is it a lively room with highly reflective walls? Is it an acoustically absorbent, dead sounding, plush, warm and richly furnished room?


How many mics do you have at your disposal and of what type of characteristics?

What instruments are to be recorded, how many of them and how are they to be dispersed around the room?

When they are in situ, how does it sound? Well balanced or not? What problems do you detect, analyse and identify?


The presence of physical bodies in the room will affect the reflective absorption so bear that in mind.

Live bleed from mics can if well placed, act as a kind of cohesive glue that improved the overall sound of the ensemble in a recording.

Whereas, sound engineers usually prefer to keep differing instruments completely isolated from one another, so there are two schools of thought, and the experience of the engineer in mic placement and technique is the decisive factor regarding the former approach.


As you pin down clearly all these various factors in your own mind, my hunch is that they will push you towards a particular approach, given the room, number of instruments (and how they project their sound), what mics are available to you.

A clear way forward should emerge as the best approach.

But like a doctor with a patient. The better the initial diagnosis of the problem, the easier to identify and apply an optimal solution.

Good Luck with your recording.

You may find this link about an old acquaintance interesting.

The Michael Gerzon Story | Into The Soundfield (ox.ac.uk)

Michael Gerzon Audio Pioneer (michaelgerzonphotos.org.uk)

First, thanks for those great links! Makes me want to get an Ambisonic mic. Really cool you got to meet him.

What are the approximate dimensions of the room?
*About 15’ X 30’

What are the acoustics like if you clap your hands in the middle of the room?
*Pretty good. I had to put some diffusion up to get rid of a nasty slap back but it worked for removing it.

Is it a lively room with highly reflective walls? Is it an acoustically absorbent, dead sounding, plush, warm and richly furnished room?
*It’s medium. I’ve put a mix of absorption up over the years and I’m pretty happy with how it’s sounding in there these days.

How many mics do you have at your disposal and of what type of characteristics?
*I have 2 ribbon fig8, a half dozen cardioid condensers, three multi pattern condensers, and another half dozen cardioid dynamics. I’m open to buying things and selling others as needed.

What instruments are to be recorded, how many of them and how are they to be dispersed around the room?
*This always varies. All the way from acoustic duos to jazz piano trios to 8 piece brass bands to rock bands. Piano and drum set are fixed in place but everything else is moveable.

When they are in situ, how does it sound? Well balanced or not? What problems do you detect, analyse and identify?
*In the room it sounds good so long as the musicians are good :) I’m not really aiming for major label CD quality sound, just an accurate room sound.

Live bleed from mics can if well placed, act as a kind of cohesive glue that improved the overall sound of the ensemble in a recording. Whereas, sound engineers usually prefer to keep differing instruments completely isolated from one another, so there are two schools of thought, and the experience of the engineer in mic placement and technique is the decisive factor regarding the former approach.
*Yeah, for this I’m trying to avoid close mics and get as much utility as I can from the room mic. I want the band to sound how the band sounds, warts and all. Then when we listen back we can critique ourselves. I don’t want to do any mixing. I want to avoid players blaming the recording technique or the mix for why they sound so bad - You’re loud because you play too darn loud! Your tone is bad because that’s how you sound!
 
Thank you. I’m learning here so I might still be wrong. With mid-side, suppose I record 4 musicians arranged in a square/diamond. 2 on each end of the mid axis, and 2 on each end of the side axis. In stereo the mid musicians would be in the middle and the sides on each side L R. But when going mono, the side information sums to zero, and it’s as if I’m only using the mid mic. So the volume of the sound of the musicians on the sides will also diminish.

I should do some systematic experimenting with my current Blumlein setup. Maybe some of the mono issues I noticed were something else entirely, like a misplaced or twisted placement or mismatched preamp gain or some other mistake. I could figure a way to rotate the mic round and round while playing piano or something.


Thank again.
The strength of mid-side is in the capture of the mid mic. If you're recording four performers, then they would all need to be in front of the cardioid mid mic. If the spread of the four performers is super wide a mid-side might not be ideal, but I'm often impressed with how effectively it can capture a wide spread with just a centrally placed side mic (capsule-aligned to the mid mic). You're right that the side levels might be slightly reduced by omitting the sides, but remember that mid-side occurs from the difference of the phase-inverted sides and the mid. The side mics aren't capturing as you would typically think of with spot mics or a spaced pair, so it might not be a concern in practice.

A diagram of your room and how you intend to arrange the performers would be helpful.
 
I appreciate what the original poster is attempting and why, but I wonder if an alternative way of thinking about things might help.

Please forgive a personal reference. Although today I am retired, I would normally work as a Musical Director/Conductor and sometimes as a Producer.

Although I would have a “vision for the project” my fundamental approach towards every person involved whatever their task, is to view things through their eyes.

I see my role as creating a framework, a scenario where everyone feels that everything has been done to make it as easy as possible for them to perform at their very highest and best.

That they never before have had such an opportunity to give everything they have got creatively, because everything about the situation is as ideal from their perspective as it can possibly be.

Of course, my perspective is that by virtue of pre-session meetings, and carefully thought-out preparations, involving the artist, singers and musicians; and by developing an ideal working situation for them from their perspective. That they will reward me by surpassing their normal best efforts and surprising themselves at the level of performance they produce.

People that fail to prepare, prepare themselves to fail..


Viewed in that way, instead of worrying about the mics and recording, in the first instance, why not think about things from the point of view of the musicians?

Although you state certain instruments cannot be moved, and headphones are often used by musicians in different locations whilst recording.

Think about the lines of sight between musicians, as I have found this to be a wonderful key that aids and tightly synchronises their interactions.

A you are aware, at times music will demand the musicians observe rubato, slow down, speed up, develop a new tempo etc. and the ability to easily observe one another and what each other are doing is key to their tight integration as a musical ensemble.

Permit me to share just one example..

Although particular stages and T.V. shows do not always permit this. All the greatest players I have ever seen, prefer to allow the Bassist and Drummer to see the left hand of the Pianist.

This is particularly the case in Jazz ensembles but the salient point applies far more widely particularly when the personal monitors available to the musicians are not ideal.

Take a look at this.. Oscar Peterson - C Jam Blues - YouTube

And take the time to observe the placement of instrument in relation to each other. Where the musicians look, their visual and physical interactions.

Because they can see the left hand of the Pianist, keeping time, and playing tight together aids their ability to be a cohesion, well integrated ensemble.

Here’s a more modern example of the same thing.

Diana Krall Live in Paris - YouTube

Although they have an orchestra behind them, the key rhythm section players can all clearly see the left hand of the Pianist either all the time or at the points where the music’s tempo alters.


My key point to you therefore, is in the first instance instead of approaching this matter from the perspective of “how can I most easily make a recording”.

Look at it from the perspective of “how can I create a situation that helps the musicians to become a better integrated, better performing musical unit, that makes performing well, as easy as possible for the musicians.”

This may mean re-arranging your room, and doing so whenever quite different ensembles attend. This clearly involves work you appear reticent to burden yourself with. But think of yourself as the servant of the musicians, your job being to create a situation where they can perform at their best.

My hunch is that they will reward you with far better and more widely appreciated recordings, than any difference a choice or position of mic will make, if their actual musical performance fails to reflect the talent that they know they are inherently more than capable of. Serve them well and they will reward you with a great performance.


As regards to the mics, I would use the ribbons to capture the entire ensemble with the live room sound as they are bi-directional. A bit of trial and error and test recording will probably enable you to find a sweet spot for their positioning.

But I would also place condensers as spot mics to enable adjustment of balance where needed. I deprecate the notion of “mixing” and much prefer the antiquated concept of “balancing engineer”.

Which to my mind more accurately described the proper function.


If players require to have their performance scrutinised because they view a recording as not representing their actual performance (as earlier appeared to be indicated).

Reviewing their individual instrument in isolation to others may be a good way to highlighting shortcomings or musical issues that require rectification.

In any event, the better ability to capture and adjust the balance between the instruments seems to me to have a genuine upside and no actual downside.


If you have a couple of small diaphragm omni condensers, these can work well as room mics also by virtue of their more accurate response and ability to capture the room.

I wouldn’t be opposed to using them with the ribbon’s mics simultaneously.

Tests done with orchestra between X/Y coincident mic array versus Spot mics I have heard show no particular advantage between the two, apart from more room sound.

Which may or may not be a good thing depending on the room.

Given plenty of mics I would choose to do both simultaneously, but not necessarily to use too many mics.

For example, sometimes a small number of mics on a drum kit can capture a better sound than spot micing every element of the kit.


Forgive me if much of this this is not the answer you were looking for.

But better musical performance results in better recording regardless of every other factor.

My highest ranking chart recording involved the addition of a Dummy Head (for a live album). You could probably make one with a polystyrene model head and using a couple of condenser mics in the pinna’s of the ears.

Set on a stand, and easily moved to different positions for trial and error, this might be a simple way of identifying if your room has a specifically definitive point, ideal for recording an ensemble from the sweetest spot available.

Good Luck with your recording.
 
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